Prostitution

[doug]

tkip, for someone who feels they are so morally superior to everyone else here, why do you visit strip clubs? You're quite the hypocrite arent you?

Posted by tkip:

I know that strip club. For Your Eyes Only. The first time I went there, I had a lap dance and then my stripper propositioned me to hook up later outside the club. I never did take her up on her offer....

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

The blinders are on those that are of the opinion that the vast majority of prostitutes are doing so willingly.

and keeping prostitution illegal helps the situation? legalizing it would make it worse?

The reality is, that if a man/woman works in the sex-trade industry, to do so 'alone' would be almost impossible to do so safely.

because it's an illegal act! usually doing things that are illegal can be dangerous because you can't expect the law to help you. men abuse independent prostitutes because they know the prostitute won't complain to the police. other prostitutes allow themselves to be pimped because with prostitution being illegal, they need illegal security which isn't always a secure thing.

Most prostitutes belong to 'pimps' otherwise, their survival on the streets would be severely impaired.

because they are engaged in illegal activities and can't expect the law to be on their side as i mentioned.


do you guys realize that many of the ills of prostitution you describe can be directly attributed to criminalizing prostitution? of course, making prostitution legal won't cure all the problems in society but it will help reduce some. how will legalizing prostitution make the situation worse?

Brothels, bawdy houses, escort services are all operated under the same pretence...men/women offering their services with a cut of the pay going to their 'pimp' or 'escort service managers'.

because instead of paying taxes to society and relying on the law for protection, they have to pay taxes to the underworld and rely on underworld justice for protection, which is a solution just as bad as the problem. with legalized prostitution, this won't be prevented in all cases BUT it will provide opportunity for safety and fairness. legalized prostitution provides an alternative option for protection: the law & the police.

These pimps don't wait for women to approach them, they go looking for them. And if you think for one minute they walk up to a group of women at a local university, or the lunch room of a law firm....take the blinders off for just a moment..the pimps scope out areas known to harbour teenagers, drug addicts, mentally ill persons. Then they make promises, they use flattery, the spoil, they treat them all like the princesses they deserve to be...they offer cheap housing in their 'boarding houses'...thus, not only do they make money off of their bodies, they take any source of gov't assistance (if they have any) from them as well, thereby, exploiting them sexually and financially. Now, that same young woman wants to leave..decides she doesn't like it, how easy do you think that is going to be? Do you think a pimp is just going to 'let her go'...hardly, it's not that black and white. Once a woman 'works for a pimp' they ARE owned. And leaving becomes virtually impossible without the threat of violence and even death. THAT is the reality of prostitution. The glitz and glamour (if it really exists) only lasts a short time, long enough to make these men/women dependent on their pimps, the rest, is what you read in the papers. THIS is the argument why it must remain illegal for anyone to support prostitution and those that do, should be punished to the full extent of the law. The prostitutes themselves...if anyone wants out of the sex-trade business, everything should be done to guide them and protect them while doing so, that way, they CAN have the opportunity to heal, to re-stabilize and find the necessary supports they need to succeed. It has nothing to do with violating anyone, it has EVERYTHING to do with protecting those from being violated. Again, my opinion.

keeping prostitution illegal does not prevent these things. making it legal will not eliminate these things. people who operate in such fashions of exploitation will continue to do so BUT those engaged in legal prostitution and/or operate legal sex businesses will be scrutinized, regulated, inspected & have the protection of the law. those running legal brothels will be subjected to all kinds of laws you can think of and their employees will enjoy protections offered by society such as reporting wage theft, refusing to do certain things, etc.


legal prostitution doesn't mean allowing: child abuse, coercion, wage theft, abusing and taking advantage mentally unstable persons or people with addictions, rape, human trafficking, slavery, recruiting minors, etc.

 

[tkip]

tkip, for someone who feels they are so morally superior to everyone else here, why do you visit strip clubs? You're quite the hypocrite arent you?

Posted by tkip:

Did I ever say I never went to a strip club? Now I watched some women dance naked and left with some friends.

Back then I was unaware that prositution was so rampant in the clubs. And when did I ever say I felt morally superior to people here? I've been preaching restraint and a return to some morals and this is partly based on my own stupidity over the years. I definitely have regrets about my own behaviour but I was raised in a atmosphere where watching naked women and porn was just accepted.

Does this excuse me? No, I can't say it does. It's just an explanation for why I thought it was okay to watch porn and go to the occasional strip club and not question what happens behind the scenes.

Never even occured to me about the deeper implications involved. But the more I paid attention and heard the stories, I couldn't pretend that I was this innocent bystander anymore. But back on polnt. The very nature of prositution means that at some point, there's going to be trafficing, exploitation and humilation involved because the entire history of prositution always follows this route.

There is no way you can set up a system where this won't happen. People will always rush in and corrupt things.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

I went a few years back. Did I ever say I never went to a strip club? Now I watched some women danced and left with some friends. Back then I was unaware that prositution was so rampant in the clubs. I didn't even know that strippers were having sex with guys.

To quote yourself in this thread on November 18th:

Ignorance is bliss....

 

[tkip]

To quote yourself in this thread on November 18th:

I was referring to those guys that purposedly turn a blind eye when they know something else is going on. Hence my ignorance is bliss comment. This is why I hate debating online. Whether intentional or not, things become misinterpreted and the hate starts. Why I prefer having face to face discussions where the talks rarely turn into name calling and mudslinging.

 

[SlickFranky]

The very nature of prositution means that at some point, there's going to be trafficing, exploitation and humilation involved because the entire history of prositution always follows this route.

There is no way you can set up a system where this won't happen. People will always rush in and corrupt things.

Moreso than they already do?

The fact is that prostitution does exist. It always has, and always will. Certain men will always be willing to pay, and certain women will always be willing to accept that payment. No law will ever change this. Making it illegal just makes it more dangerous for eveyone involved, and encourages the kind of criminal exploitation you're so concerned about. A legal industry is a lot easier to regulate and monitor than an illegal one.

You've made a lot arguments for why the current state of prostitution is deplorable, but I've yet to hear how legalizing it would make the situation worse.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I was referring to those guys that purposedly turn a blind eye when they know something else is going on. Hence my ignorance is bliss comment.

one of those guys such as yourself? you said before that you went to a strip joint and a stripper asked if you wanted to pay for sex. why didn't you call the police on her?

 

[tkip]

one of those guys such as yourself? you said before that you went to a strip joint and a stripper asked if you wanted to pay for sex. why didn't you call the police on her?

I left the club and went home by myself. I never saw her again. That was about 2-3 years ago. I never called her.

This is what happened. She whisphered into my ear and said she would like to see me again and handed me her number. I just assumed she was going to offer sex for a price.

I actually threw her number away outside the club. My buddies thought I was crazy. Interesingly enough I've known several guys over the years who've been picked up by strippers in clubs, hooked up with them and had casual sex. In fact, one my friends at work was picked up by a stripper one night at this club, told him to call her and they went out on a few dates but that was it.

So I'll never know whether she was geniunely interested in me or was going to make me an offer. Once again, I just assumed.

But I just expererienced a Ford moment. Someone went digging through the past, trying to find dirt to discredit me.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I left the club and went home by myself. I never saw her again. That was about 2-3 years ago. I never called her.

This is what happened. She whisphered into my ear and said she would like to see me again and handed me her number. I just assumed she was going to offer sex for a price.

I actually threw her number away outside the club. My buddies thought I was crazy. Interesingly enough I've known several guys over the years who've been picked up by strippers in clubs, hooked up with them and had casual sex. In fact, one my friends at work was picked up by a stripper one night at this club, told him to call her and they went out on a few dates but that was it.

So I'll never know whether she was geniunely interested in me or was going to make me an offer. Once again, I just assumed.

But I just expererienced a Ford moment. Someone went digging through the past, trying to find dirt to discredit me.

i'm not trying to shovel dirt on you, the point i was trying to make is the possible reason why you didn't call the cops on her is because you probably believed that punishing her would not have helped the situation and if she had given her number to another man, you probably wouldn't have called the cops either. maybe you're disgusted by prostitution but deep down inside, when it comes to your beliefs of having it illegal, i don't believe that you would actually want to go through with punishing either persons because it isn't the most beneficial course of action. unless something else beyond prostitution was going on, you know you would have probably done more harm by actually applying your belief.

is there some truth to what i am saying?

 

[gristle]

Grristle, I honestly understand the argument for legalizing to make things safer but are there actual stats showing this to be the case?

You cited Amsterdam, could you provide statistics? No one is under the illusion the legalizing prostitution will create a perfect world.

There's still a underground market and trade apparently in places where they've legalized prositution.

That has already been noted. Many of us have already mentioned that legalizing prostitution will not make the abuse of minors disappear. No one here is arguing for the sexual abuse of minors.

And I think Shyne68 has it nailed down. People are trying to glamorize the industry instead of recognizing the true nature of how women are supplied to the male clients.

Where has anyone "glamorized" prostitution? Where exactly have I glamorized prostitution? The point to legalizing prostitution is to remove, as best as possible, the pimping, organized crime, abuse and drug problems that do exist. By exposing the trade to regulation, the chances of people being forced into prostitution get reduced.

And I'm been saying that men going to prositutues is the main problem.

A rather odd explanation. No woman has ever willingly participated? Ever?

They've also betrayed their wives and girlfriends waiting at home while out shopping for women and no one wants to condemn these men. Guys everywhere go silent on this matter.

What about men who can't get girlfriends? You forgot them. By the way, guys are talking to you here and now, so you aren't getting the silent treatment. What is getting in the way is your moralizing and assumption that no one knows what you do about this subject. No matter how much you dislike and disparage prostitution, it's not going to go away - whether it's legalized or not. Legalizing and regulating it holds a very strong possibility of lessening some of the negative aspects related to the trade.

There's no social conscious here or sense of moral shame.

Why, because some of us disagree with your opinion? Spouting on about your own personal moral ideals about how everyone ought to act according to you does not actually address the real world. Did it occur to you that arguing for a legalized and regulated sex trade that protects sex workers is an ethical approach to dealing with the negative aspects of the trade?

My rant has been about the hidden victemization behind the scenes in the sex industry and while I've posted that a lot fo porn is actually degrading towards women, I'm not saying porn should be illegal.

Now you're splitting moral hairs. Could that be because you poke around in porn sites now and then?

I know this is making some of you guys squirm but the average hooker isn't living a glamarous lifestyle like you see on shows like Secret Life of a Call Girl.

No squirming here. What makes you think that everyone other than you confuses TV shows with reality?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

penn & teller did a nice episode on the issue we're discussing:


[video=youtube;ipfF5yUub2I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfF5yUub2I[/video]

[video=youtube;afvxcNdkEw8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afvxcNdkEw8[/video]

 

[archanfel]

Did I ever say I never went to a strip club? Now I watched some women dance naked and left with some friends.

Back then I was unaware that prositution was so rampant in the clubs. And when did I ever say I felt morally superior to people here? I've been preaching restraint and a return to some morals and this is partly based on my own stupidity over the years. I definitely have regrets about my own behaviour but I was raised in a atmosphere where watching naked women and porn was just accepted.

Does this excuse me? No, I can't say it does. It's just an explanation for why I thought it was okay to watch porn and go to the occasional strip club and not question what happens behind the scenes.

Never even occured to me about the deeper implications involved. But the more I paid attention and heard the stories, I couldn't pretend that I was this innocent bystander anymore. But back on polnt. The very nature of prositution means that at some point, there's going to be trafficing, exploitation and humilation involved because the entire history of prositution always follows this route.

There is no way you can set up a system where this won't happen. People will always rush in and corrupt things.

The very nature of human means that at some point, there's going to be trafficking and exploitation, being it prostitution, drugs or cheap labour. The track records for alcohol, junk food or even automobile weren't exactly stellar either. And don't get me started on money itself. More importantly, the track record of banning things aren't all that good in the first place. For there's demand and profit, there will be supply.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

So now, are we ready for a social experiment that is unprecedented in this country?

Ontario prostitution laws could die Saturday

 

[MisterF]

There's no social conscious here or sense of moral shame.

My social concious tells me that legalizing prostitution is more socially concious than forcing it underground by banning it. My sense of moral shame tells me that denying prostitutes protection under the law is higly immoral. In an environment where prostitution is legal, prostitutes have access to treatment to help them get out of destructive lifestyles, they aren't owned by pimps, and johns are less likely to catch infections from their clients. That's a far more moral approach than the one we have now.

 

[OttoSchloss]

So as of tomorrow I can start strutting my stuff on the street for $$$???