Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[JayBeeGooner]

I hope a reporter asks him how subways will reduce congestion on the DVP and 401.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I hope a reporter asks him how subways will reduce congestion on the DVP and 401.

Answer: It wont.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A revamped provincial transit agency should be put in charge of planning and operation of
what will become a truly regional system that moves people faster and more efficiently. This
requires transferring operations of TTC subways and LRTs to GO Transit, and uploading
major highways in the GTA and Ottawa region

Why does he want to do this? This would be a disaster. IIRC the subway routes are profitable. The surface routes (especially suburban) aren't. And of course I doubt the PCs plan to make up this loss of revenue with additional funding.

 

[innsertnamehere]

They are right to upload them, but wrong in the way they are doing it IMO.

 

[Solid Snake]

So the subway will only go to STC. Just like I though. 3.3 billion was too much and Hudak will cut it.

I didn't understood it that way, pretty sure he meant Sheppard not the Bloor-Danforth line

We support a full, effective subway system for Scarborough – including the Bloor-Danforth extension,burying the Eglinton Crosstown as much as possible and extending the Sheppard subway stump to Scarborough City Centre

 

[Solid Snake]

Answer: It wont.

neither will LRT. I think subways will reduce the inner Toronto traffic as more drivers will be willing to leave their cars at home or at a subway station. More frequent GO trains, both way service, electrified trains, more stations within Toronto is the way to "go" for fighting gridlock on highways.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They are right to upload them, but wrong in the way they are doing it IMO.

They should take either all of the TTC or none of it. They can't cherry pick the profitable parts and leave the unprofitable parts of the business to the municipalities. If they did that we'd almost certainly see municipal tax rates rise or a huge drop in service quality.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

neither will LRT

Okay? I never claimed that it did.

Two things:
1. All these new transit projects probably won't be reducing overall congestion. At best it will maintain current congestion levels, since the region is growing.
2. Reducing traffic on 401 is far beyond the scope of any subway, LRT or other rapid transit projects. People on the 401 are coming from long distances that go far beyond the reach of our rapid transit.

 

[accura407]

They should take either all of the TTC or none of it. They can't cherry pick the profitable parts and leave the unprofitable parts of the business to the municipalities. If they did that we'd almost certainly see municipal tax rates rise or a huge drop in service quality.

Someone correct me but my understanding of the LA transit system is that "METRO" handles all rapid transit (subways, LRTs, commuter rail) and then the city's handle their own bus service.

Since Toronto is inevitably going towards a similar modal, aka Metrolinx, I think it makes sense that you seperate the higher order transit from the lower order transit

Imagine how beautifully they can integrate the higher order transit system if subways and commuter trains and LRTs can all work together under one management

Does it not make sense that rails and buses should be separated? Think big picture!

 

[innsertnamehere]

They should take either all of the TTC or none of it. They can't cherry pick the profitable parts and leave the unprofitable parts of the business to the municipalities. If they did that we'd almost certainly see municipal tax rates rise or a huge drop in service quality.

Subways play a regional role, and to me should be a provincial responsibility because of that. the "right" way to implement it is to return to a 50% subsidy of TTC operations, and to upload the subways. I don't support Hudaks plan, as it simply uploads the subways without compensation to the TTC, but I do support the uploading in principal.




a post I made on reddit about this:


Hudak's cornerstone example of land to sell off is the LCBO lands.. You would think Hudak would do his research and realize that the land sold a year ago, and that it is probably the most valuable land the province owns that can be sold off (queens park is probably worth more but you can't exactly go and sell that), and it sold for $200 million. I struggle to see how he could sell $2 billion worth of land in a single year, yet alone for 15 years in a row. Thats not feasible, there simply isn't a market for it, nor does the province have that amount of land to sell. You may be able to liquidate $1 billion or so worth, but that only gets you 1/7th of the way there to the DRL. Come back when you have a real plan please.


Another note, buried in the paper Hudak sheepishly mentions getting rid of the Greenbelt and Place to Grow act. Now that pisses me off. its the cornerstone to ensure this transit expansion works. Hudak preaches transit expansion on one end and encourages sprawl and car use on the other. Hes quietly pro-highway, supporting the Mid-Peninsula highway, musing about a 3rd ring road around the city, (the PCs actually proposed this in 2001, it was going to be called the 413) and openly supporting adding lanes to the DVP. This guy is a blithering idiot when it comes to transportation planning, and he goes against essentially every single planning principle of the 21st century. He is actively advocating for the continuation of 1960's planning principals where the car is king and subways simply act as a way to get those pesky transit riders out of car driving peoples (the superior kind of people obviously) way.

 

[Solid Snake]

Why does he want to do this? This would be a disaster. IIRC the subway routes are profitable. The surface routes (especially suburban) aren't. And of course I doubt the PCs plan to make up this loss of revenue with additional funding.

Because Transport for London and Paris RATP are a disaster... riiightt!!!!

 

[Solid Snake]

The Scarborough LRT from Transit City is described as:


They could make the case for the Bloor Scarborough extension without using misleading false statements.

I'm glad that Hudak does NOT want to cancel the Eglinton Crosstown. Although "buried as much as possible" could mean fill in the tunnel again I suppose

Why didn't you put the full sentence :

Take Scarborough as an example. After years of insisting that Scarborough only needed a street-level, light rail transit line, the current government suddenly championed a subway plan to win a summer byelection

There's nothing inaccurate with that sentence. He doesn't specify that he's talking about Scarborough or the Sheppard LRT. In general, the Liberals always supported LRT on the street and then they turn around and became subway champions.

It's accurate

 

[Solid Snake]

Okay? I never claimed that it did.

Two things:
1. All these new transit projects probably won't be reducing overall congestion. At best it will maintain current congestion levels, since the region is growing.
2. Reducing traffic on 401 is far beyond the scope of any subway, LRT or other rapid transit projects. People on the 401 are coming from long distances that go far beyond the reach of our rapid transit.

1. I think that if Eglinton was 100% grade separated, Sheppard was extended and DRL was build, there will be less cars on these roads. I don't think the document claims that these subway expansions will cure Toronto's gridlock but I think the goal is to be better than Montreal, Vancouver and be maybe behind NYC. If you look at the chart at P.9, we have the WORST travel time in ALL categories (cars, truck, public transit). LRT at grade will not change that. Subways or LRT grade separated will.

2.Agreed. Subways and LRT won't affect the 401, 400, 404 at all. Only GO can do that buy upgrading the technology, trains, frequency, reliability, numbers of stations within Toronto and integrated to the subway system like London and Paris does. That's why, accurately he prioritize GO Train improvements over LRT

 

[TOareaFan]

a post I made on reddit about this:


Hudak's cornerstone example of land to sell off is the LCBO lands.. You would think Hudak would do his research and realize that the land sold a year ago, and that it is probably the most valuable land the province owns that can be sold off (queens park is probably worth more but you can't exactly go and sell that), and it sold for $200 million. I struggle to see how he could sell $2 billion worth of land in a single year, yet alone for 15 years in a row. Thats not feasible, there simply isn't a market for it, nor does the province have that amount of land to sell. You may be able to liquidate $1 billion or so worth, but that only gets you 1/7th of the way there to the DRL. Come back when you have a real plan please.

You are correct in saying the province does not have $2 billion a year of excess property to sell....but you paint an inaccurate (by my read) of what Hudak is saying. I can't find, anywhere, where he or any other Tory said that the entire $2B/year would come from sale of excess lands. It is one component of the various ways that they claim they can dedicate $2B/year to transit/roads/infrastructure without needing to raise new taxes/tolls/fees.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I hope a reporter asks him how subways will reduce congestion on the DVP and 401.

We support a full, effective subway system for Scarborough – including the Bloor-Danforth extension,burying the Eglinton Crosstown as much as possible and extending the Sheppard subway stump to Scarborough City Centre

I hope a reporter asks him how he plans to fund the operation of these lines. The 5km Sheppard line costs about $36 Million to operate and should be losing about $20 Million annually. Extending this line eastbound would multiply the amount of money lost.

As a smart fiscal conservative, I'm assuming Hudak would support increasing Ontario's funding of the TTC to pay for the $20 Million lost on the 5.5 km Sheppard line.

Oh wait, he doesn't. My bad. I forgot Hudak isn't a conservative. Just a populist masquerading as a conservative.