Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sheppard subway extended to Scarborough City Centre is specifically mentioned.

He does. He wants Sheppard Subway to run from STC to Downsview. He also wants the Bloor-Danforth subway extension to STC, the DRL, the Yonge extension to Richmond Hill and then probably a westbound Bloor-Danforth subway extension to Sherway Gardens.

Thanks guys. I don't know if I can support this. This is a lot of money for nothing. If he throws in a eglinton-pearson extension this may be viable. Finch West is getting screwed.

 

[ehlow]

Why didn't you put the full sentence :



There's nothing inaccurate with that sentence. He doesn't specify that he's talking about Scarborough or the Sheppard LRT. In general, the Liberals always supported LRT on the street and then they turn around and became subway champions.

It's accurate

They talk about the current government changing support from LRT to Subway, in the quote you just made. That refers to the Scarborough LRT, not the Sheppard LRT. The Scarborough LRT running on the Scarborough RT route was the one where the Liberals changed to supporting a Subway. That line was fully grade separated.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Someone correct me but my understanding of the LA transit system is that "METRO" handles all rapid transit (subways, LRTs, commuter rail) and then the city's handle their own bus service.

Since Toronto is inevitably going towards a similar modal, aka Metrolinx, I think it makes sense that you seperate the higher order transit from the lower order transit

Imagine how beautifully they can integrate the higher order transit system if subways and commuter trains and LRTs can all work together under one management

Does it not make sense that rails and buses should be separated? Think big picture!

It makes sense - as long as the TTC is properly funded.

It's a fine idea.
The problem is that the TTC is the worst funded transit system in North America. If the province of Ontario wants the subways, they'll have to fund TTC surface operations. As innsert said, Ontario funding 50% of TTC operations and uploading the subways is the right way to do it.

The wrong way to do it would be to just upload the subway with zero funding for surface routes. That would be a disaster.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Because Transport for London and Paris RATP are a disaster... riiightt!!!!

And I'm willing to bet that they receive more funding than the TTC.

 

[innsertnamehere]

You are correct in saying the province does not have $2 billion a year of excess property to sell....but you paint an inaccurate (by my read) of what Hudak is saying. I can't find, anywhere, where he or any other Tory said that the entire $2B/year would come from sale of excess lands. It is one component of the various ways that they claim they can dedicate $2B/year to transit/roads/infrastructure without needing to raise new taxes/tolls/fees.

your right, other ways include ways the liberals are also proposing that give you "free money" such as LVC, 407 extension toll profits, etc, as well as new HOT lanes. except that those HOT lanes would be new build on locations such as the DVP (allowing for increased car capacity into the downtown core, exactly what we don't want) and would probably take almost a decade to implement. The liberals proposals allow the money to start flowing almost immediately, Hudaks proposal (somewhat conveniently) takes several years to even really begin having money roll in.

 

[ehlow]

Okay? I never claimed that it did.

Two things:
1. All these new transit projects probably won't be reducing overall congestion. At best it will maintain current congestion levels, since the region is growing.
2. Reducing traffic on 401 is far beyond the scope of any subway, LRT or other rapid transit projects. People on the 401 are coming from long distances that go far beyond the reach of our rapid transit.

+1, I don't think traffic would be reduced from building any transit line or enhanced GO service. It simply gives people an alternative to driving and the ability to avoid traffic. Just like the fact that Manhattan & LA will never not have traffic.

The only way I can imagine traffic getting better is if:
For some reason Toronto's population decreases dramatically. This doesn't seem likely given that the city is growing very fast, and there are still many countries that will be sources of immigration in the future.

The price of gas/electricity becomes so high that people can't afford to drive. To me this seems more likely eventually.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

+1, I don't think traffic would be reduced from building any transit line or enhanced GO service. It simply gives people an alternative to driving and the ability to avoid traffic. Just like the fact that Manhattan & LA will never not have traffic.

The only way I can imagine traffic getting better is if:
For some reason Toronto's population decreases dramatically. This doesn't seem likely given that the city is growing very fast, and there are still many countries that will be sources of immigration in the future.

The price of gas/electricity becomes so high that people can't afford to drive. To me this seems more likely eventually.

Exactly.

 

[Solid Snake]

I hope a reporter asks him how he plans to fund the operation of these lines. The 5km Sheppard line costs about $36 Million to operate and should be losing about $20 Million annually. Extending this line eastbound would multiply the amount of money lost.

As a smart fiscal conservative, I'm assuming Hudak would support increasing Ontario's funding of the TTC to pay for the $20 Million lost on the 5.5 km Sheppard line.

Oh wait, he doesn't. My bad. I forgot Hudak isn't a conservative. Just a populist masquerading as a conservative.

Hence why the subways might be better run by the province. Why on earth for 10 years the Sheppard subway

-close every night at 2am instead of 12am since the Yonge Line shuts down at 12h30 am north of Eglinton on weeknights?
-run every 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes off peak?
-Why haven't all those condo developers paid a fee to build on top of subway stations like it's done elsewhere in the world?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

1. I think that if Eglinton was 100% grade separated, Sheppard was extended and DRL was build, there will be less cars on these roads. I don't think the document claims that these subway expansions will cure Toronto's gridlock but I think the goal is to be better than Montreal, Vancouver and be maybe behind NYC. If you look at the chart at P.9, we have the WORST travel time in ALL categories (cars, truck, public transit). LRT at grade will not change that. Subways or LRT grade separated will.

I don't understand your logic. How will light rail not improve travel times? I'd understand if they were as slow as peak hour busses and carried as few people, but that's not true.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So this is the hudak plan. Does not look as bad on the map.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hence why the subways might be better run by the province. Why on earth for 10 years the Sheppard subway

-close every night at 2am instead of 12am since the Yonge Line shuts down at 12h30 am north of Eglinton on weeknights?
-run every 5 minutes instead of 10 minutes off peak?
-Why haven't all those condo developers paid a fee to build on top of subway stations like it's done elsewhere in the world?

Then upload the subways. I think everyone here agrees that's a good option. Just as long as they massively increase TTC funding. As I've mentioned before, the surface routes on the TTC lose money. If they take away revenue from Toronto's subways and don't increase surface route funding, the entire system falls apart.

 

[Solid Snake]

+1, I don't think traffic would be reduced from building any transit line or enhanced GO service. It simply gives people an alternative to driving and the ability to avoid traffic. Just like the fact that Manhattan & LA will never not have traffic.

The only way I can imagine traffic getting better is if:
For some reason Toronto's population decreases dramatically. This doesn't seem likely given that the city is growing very fast, and there are still many countries that will be sources of immigration in the future.

The price of gas/electricity becomes so high that people can't afford to drive. To me this seems more likely eventually.

That doesn't make any sense. We're smaller than NYC and similar to Chicago and we are the worst in all categories of traffic. Our rapid transit infrastructure is a joke next to them, even Montreal and Vancouver. The report never claims to kill gridlock but to improve on that list so that Toronto can become more competitive

 

[Solid Snake]

So this is the hudak plan. Does not look as bad on the map.

looks better with the DRL as red line added to that

 

[Solid Snake]

Then upload the subways. I think everyone here agrees that's a good option. Just as long as they massively increase TTC funding. As I've mentioned before, the surface routes on the TTC lose money. If they take away revenue from Toronto's subways and don't increase surface route funding, the entire system falls apart.

100% agree with you on that. Public Transit needs to be subsidized in this province. I think in Quebec it's almost half, if not more (not sure)

ADD: BTW, if he uploads the DVP,Gardiner, Allen Road and the Subway, wouldn't that come off the city books? With that free money, wouldn't the city be in a better position to subsidize TTC Bus and streetcar networks? I still support provincial AND Federal funding

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I didn't understood it that way, pretty sure he meant Sheppard not the Bloor-Danforth line

If sheppard goes from Downsiew to STC theres no point in Sheppard McCowan. Make STC the transfer point.