Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Filip:

But that doesn't really make any sense - considering that ridership on Eglinton will not likely require a 6 car heavy rail subway line anytime within the planning horizon. It would be no different from insisting that we build a chunk of Sheppard when there is no need for subway level capacity and then insist of BRT as the solution for points beyond just because one day you *might* get heavy-rail subway level ridership for the entire line.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Filip:

But that doesn't really make any sense - considering that ridership on Eglinton will not likely require a 6 car heavy rail subway line anytime within the planning horizon. It would be no different from insisting that we build a chunk of Sheppard and then insist of BRT as the solution just because one day you *might* get heavy-rail subway level ridership for the entire line.

AoD

But isn't that exactly the argument LRT supporters are using for Hurontario, Sheppard and Finch? Ridership in those areas can be handled well by BRT for the forseeable planning future (ie: 20 years out) - why hold LRTs under different scrutiny than subways? Subways have the power to transform, streetcars do not.

There's a reason we built a deck under the Prince Edward Viaduct even though the subway came many decades later. There's a reason we built the Yonge line north of Eglinton even though ridership was low - very ditto for Bloor (I had no idea this line had abysmal ridership, but apparently it did!). Major capital expenditures for transit should be future proof. The Eglinton line is not future proof. Maybe it was when the line was being designed to handle a 'simple' conversion to HRT down the road, but from what I've heard, that consideration was thrown out the window.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Well first of all nobody here is talking about streetcars.

Second of all, Brt does have the ability of maxing out on hurontario in the 20 year time frame, while Eglinton has almost no chance on a 50 year time frame. Never mind the fact that LRT costs 500 million more here while subway on Eglinton cost 2 billion more.

 

[Patdouville]

The biggest items on the provincial budget are health and education and a big part of that is salaries. Any significant "efficiencies" needed to reduce the massive deficit of the province and eventually free up money for large transit investments will have to be in this area. Although I think that an argument could be made that public servants are better off in Ontario than in neighboring provinces/states, I don't think Hudak has the political strength to fight the unions.

 

[doady]

I didn't see it in the article. Is Hudak proposing improving GO only in the city of Toronto. GO improvements are the most appealling form of transit spending to most people in the 905.

GO is maybe more appealling to people in places like Burlington and Oakville, but not Mississauga. There is a reason why Mississauga's busiest bus route has no connection to Toronto. The vast majority of people in Mississauga do not work in Toronto, let alone downtown Toronto specifically. Most people in Mississauga work in Mississauga. And far more people in Mississauga use MiWay instead of GO.

From 2011 Census:

"In many peripheral municipalities, a minority of commuters travel to work in the central municipality. For example, in the Toronto CMA, 27.1% of commuters who lived in the municipality of Mississauga and had a usual place of work travelled to work in the city of Toronto. The majority of commuters who lived in Mississauga (55.0%) also worked in Mississauga."

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/99-012-x2011003_1-eng.cfm

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

But isn't that exactly the argument LRT supporters are using for Hurontario, Sheppard and Finch? Ridership in those areas can be handled well by BRT for the forseeable planning future (ie: 20 years out) - why hold LRTs under different scrutiny than subways?

Well, I would be quite happy not to see anything for Sheppard or Finch (unlike a certain someone who think that blowing billions on subways there, on the basis of "downtown having too many subways" is a good criteria to determine priority) - as to Hurontario, it is cutting it a bit close given the trends for urban development along the line (hell, it might even have a better case for subways than the BD extension to STC on that basis). And like I've said, why shouldn't we hold subways to a different scrutiny than LRT - you are paying 3x more/km.

Subways have the power to transform, streetcars do not.

That's a new-agey non-answer. Mass transit has the power to transform whether it is a 6 car subway or a 3 car LRT if the conditions are there; it couldn't transform anything if the conditions are not - subways certainly haven't turned Warden or Kennedy into heaven, the last time I checked.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Well, I would be quite happy not to see anything for Sheppard or Finch (unlike a certain someone who think that blowing billions on subways there, on the basis of "downtown having too many subways" is a good criteria to determine priority) - as to Hurontario, it is cutting it a bit close given the trends for urban development along the line (hell, it might even have a better case for subways than the BD extension to STC on that basis). And like I've said, why shouldn't we hold subways to a different scrutiny than LRT - you are paying 3x more/km.



That's a new-agey non-answer. Mass transit has the power to transform whether it is a 6 car subway or a 3 car LRT if the conditions are there; it couldn't transform anything if the conditions are not - subways certainly haven't turned Warden or Kennedy into heaven, the last time I checked.

AoD

You are not paying 3x more for subways when talking about Eglinton (which is what I'm basing my entire tirade on). There was a good reason Metrolinx fought (half heartedly I admit) for HRT on Eglinton, but the city pushed and pushed with the Transit City agenda. It's a shame.

I agree, Sheppard and Finch need BRT - send that money into the DRL or Eglinton subway

And please, LRTs will not revolutionize commuiting like the subway lines have in Toronto. People pay an arm and a leg to be anywhere near a subway station. I doubt that will ever translate to the LRTs we're planning (too many stops, poor signal priority, not segregated, etc).

 

[doady]

LRT and subway have to power to transform in the right place. Most of Finch is not part of the "Avenues" plan though. Sheppard LRT east of Brimley is also pointless. If its about redevelopment, Sheppard West should have been higher priority than Sheppard east of Brimley. Likewise, Wilson would have been a better choice than Finch West.

 

[toraerach]

I'm extremely concerned about any government beholden to rural "landowners"-types taking charge of local transit in a city where they have little support. Even though the subway plays an important regional role, it is the backbone of local transit in the 416. I've been concerned with the overly regional focus Metrolinx approaches it with ever since they floated their terrible DRL-to-Bathurst GO plan - I'd hate to see what kind of priority the member for, say, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington would place on our ability to get around our own city. I'm all for regional integration, but I don't trust politicians elected outside the city (some from hours away) to keep our needs and best interests in mind. The TTC is run fairly well, especially when it comes to surface-to-subway integration. We absolutely cannot afford to lose that in an upload/privatization scheme.

As for the Gardiner/DVP - I'd like to see the province sending some money to maintain them, but ownership (and the decisions re: ultimate fate of the Gardiner, etc.) ought to remain with the City. Council can do a lot more to integrate our municipal highways into the urban fabric because councilors are aware of - and accountable to - local residents and the local context in a way MTO staff are not.

These may be non-issues though. The Liberals are proving surprisingly resilient in the polls despite gas plant scandals, etc. Given this, and factoring in the comparative efficiency of the Liberal vote, I'd be surprised to see a PC majority at Queen's Park anytime soon. The NDP really are the wildcard here though - last time I checked, Horwath was playing well in the Southwestern Ontario ridings both the Liberals and PCs would need to take to form a majority. Barring a majority in the legislature (regardless of governing party), I doubt we'll see any significant change in transportation policy.

 

[TOareaFan]

GO is maybe more appealling to people in places like Burlington and Oakville, but not Mississauga. There is a reason why Mississauga's busiest bus route has no connection to Toronto. The vast majority of people in Mississauga do not work in Toronto, let alone downtown Toronto specifically. Most people in Mississauga work in Mississauga. And far more people in Mississauga use MiWay instead of GO.

From 2011 Census:

"In many peripheral municipalities, a minority of commuters travel to work in the central municipality. For example, in the Toronto CMA, 27.1% of commuters who lived in the municipality of Mississauga and had a usual place of work travelled to work in the city of Toronto. The majority of commuters who lived in Mississauga (55.0%) also worked in Mississauga."

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/99-012-x2011003_1-eng.cfm

I recognize those are percentages of commuters and not total population but...Mississauga's population is 713k....the combined population of the other two you mention is about half of that (358,299) so (assuming the ratio of commuters to total population is consistent amongst the municipalities) the commute to Toronto percentages for those 2 communities would have to be more than double Mississauga's for GO to have a lower impact on regional transportation in 'sauga by comparison.

I would also bet (just a gut feeling) that one of the drivers on people who work and live in Mississauga (or any like communities) is the ability to drive to work.

I guess what I am saying is that I think in case of Mississauga (any 905 community I guess) that GO train improvements have a much better chance of materially and positively impacting traffic/gridlock than improvements to local transit. Not saying we should not improve local transportation (I am very proud of the work being done in my municipality on that front) but in setting priorities I think GO Train improvement has, and should have, a higher priority.

 

[andrewpmk]

The trouble with Eglinton is that building a normal subway between Black Creek and Don Mills would cost less than the current light rail plan, and carry more people. Now that city council has voted to replace the SRT with a subway, demand east of Don Mills goes down; maybe we should just cancel this section. Demand west of Don Mills is much higher, and not grade separating Leslie/Eglinton is a huge mistake.

 

[Solid Snake]

Filip:

But that doesn't really make any sense - considering that ridership on Eglinton will not likely require a 6 car heavy rail subway line anytime within the planning horizon. It would be no different from insisting that we build a chunk of Sheppard when there is no need for subway level capacity and then insist of BRT as the solution for points beyond just because one day you *might* get heavy-rail subway level ridership for the entire line.

AoD

It would have if it was underground as Metrolinx had projected up to 14 000 pph by 2031. Council being adamant to have the eastern part of the line at grade "hence turning off half of the future ridership" made sure that ridership wouldn't happen in the near future so they could have sexy trains at grade on Eglinton East

So there you have it...city building at it's best...

 

[Voltz]

The trouble with Eglinton is that building a normal subway between Black Creek and Don Mills would cost less than the current light rail plan, and carry more people. Now that city council has voted to replace the SRT with a subway, demand east of Don Mills goes down; maybe we should just cancel this section. Demand west of Don Mills is much higher, and not grade separating Leslie/Eglinton is a huge mistake.

So you want to put in one of those evil, dastardly ridership destroying forced transfers at Don Mills that are apparently the bane of all transit riders existence then?

 

[Solid Snake]

Second of all, Brt does have the ability of maxing out on hurontario in the 20 year time frame

Not according to the reports number which clearly shows Hurontario LRT ridership within BRT level

while Eglinton has almost no chance on a 50 year time frame. Never mind the fact that LRT costs 500 million more here while subway on Eglinton cost 2 billion more.

Wrong. Metrolinx numbers clearly showed that if the line was underground it would have been at subway level with up to 14 000 pph


So by your logic, it's ok to overspend for an LRT on Hurontario when the ridership won't be there by 2031 and spend less for an underground Eglinton when the ridership would have been well into subway by 2031...

The hypocrisy of the pro LRT is outstanding

 

[Forgotten]

BRT is crap. Stop shoving that stuff down our throats. It's just buses.