News   Nov 22, 2024
 648     1 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 1.1K     5 
News   Nov 22, 2024
 3K     8 

Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

As a few previous posts seemed confused over the issue, here is a good explanation of how air travel, using existing aircraft, is in the process of becoming the most environmental friendly way to travel:

 
Last edited:
As a few previous posts seemed confused over the issue, here is a good explanation of how air travel, using exiting aircraft, is in the process of becoming the most environmental friendly way to travel:

An article written by you on your page is not evidence. Please cite your sources.
 
I'm not sure how Pickering Airport factors in to making net-zero carbon emissions any more likely. SAF fuels have a similar challenge to the ethanol and other bio-fuel revolutions that were expected decades ago and didn't materialize, namely a source for the bio-matter to turn into fuel. It competes with food production, it isn't as environmentally sound as marketed due to fertilizer, transport, and refining, and it isn't as cheap as the fuel created by pumping oil out of the ground. Not to say that production of SAF fuels in the quantities required and without other significant environmental impacts will never occur, but I don't think a few demonstration projects on SAF fuels is a green light to Pickering Airport being a green option.
 
Now that the feds have committed to HFR, I would like to see the demand study for this airport redone. Seems to me that Dorval can be substantially developed to handle most demand from Eastern Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes. And westward HFR extensions and upgrades can be used to cut down regional flights to London and Windsor. That should free up room at Pearson.
 
I'm not sure how Pickering Airport factors in to making net-zero carbon emissions any more likely.

They don't. Ask him to build a business case that requires Pickering to offer 100% SAF and watch how quickly he folds. He is using the existence of SAF somewhere in the world to argue that emissions reductions elsewhere would have a Pickering Airport more sustainable. It's nonsense.

Then again, Mark is a terrible messenger for this project. You should see his overt politicization elsewhere, with lots of anti-Liberal screed and some borderline climate denialism.
 
Regardless of whether or not the airport at Pickering should go ahead in my opinion, it shouldn't, it's interesting to compare the progress here with the new Western Sydney (Nancy Bird Walton) Airport in Sydney, Australia.
Planned since the 1980s, and the first phase open in 2026. It's being built as Sydney Airport is at capacity, is unable to expand or build new runways and has night flight restrictions - the new airport will have none of these issues. A new motorway (M12) and a new Metro line (Sydney Metro Greater West) are also being built to serve the site.

Pearson on the other hand has room for terminal expansion, plenty of runways, runs 24/7 (albeit with night flight quotas) and work to improve transit access is well underway...
 
An article written by you on your page is not evidence. Please cite your sources.
Disprove my sources, you can start with the ICAO numbers. ( International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations Agency) or perhaps with the NACC (.National Airlines Council of Canada ).
 
Disprove my sources, you can start with the ICAO numbers. ( International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations Agency) or perhaps with the NACC (.National Airlines Council of Canada ).

I hate to break this to you Mark.............well....

But the onus is on someone making a case for something to prove their argument; it is not on anyone else to disprove it.

****

You have not proven your case.

That you include a random assortment of facts in your piece does not make your thesis true.
You should cite sources for your 'facts' where you have them..........

But that isn't even key here.

Its that you draw a conclusion not supported by the facts you cite.
You then consider the fact you drew an erroneous or at the very least unsupported conclusion to be evidence in its own right, because you published it.

Tis not so.
 
Last edited:
Disprove my sources, you can start with the ICAO numbers. ( International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations Agency) or perhaps with the NACC (.National Airlines Council of Canada ).
I didn't see any data showing how aviation carbon emissions are on a trajectory to beat road transportation to net-zero carbon emission in your article. Even SAF fuel marketing says that it can reduce the carbon emissions by up to 80% (which is highly optimistic) but in no way can they meet 100% because plants don't magically grow in the quantities required and magically turn into jet fuel waiting to be loaded on to aircraft. The title of your article compares aviation against road travel, but the title is not supported by the content... there isn't a single line talking about the advancements being made in road travel!! I know there are laws in various jurisdictions to force the conversion of road transportation to electric by dates between 2035 and 2050; what laws exist in the aviation market that enforce a move SAF fuels by 2050? I can see all a lot of manufacturers of electric road vehicles making progress right now, I see progress on the power grid... what meaningful progress has been made with SAF fuels that show it is on a faster trajectory that road transportation? With cars going electric what are the assumed sources of energy for cars that would support this argument? If SAF fuels are affordable and somehow magically have net zero emissions when you burn them, then why wouldn't power plants and any remaining road vehicles be using them? You would need to have evidence that a SAF fuel supply chain will exist in 2040 that can replace all the aviation fuel used today, and that airlines will use it (i.e. it will be available and cost effective)... is that in the ICAO and NACC info? You would need evidence that the burning of the fuel during flight, the refinement process to create the fuel, the carbon released to create fertilizer for this crop, and the land cleared to make this crop would release less carbon than the growing of plants used to create the fuel would capture from the atmosphere. There is no where near enough evidence to support your statement.
 
I didn't see any data showing how aviation carbon emissions are on a trajectory to beat road transportation to net-zero carbon emission in your article. Even SAF fuel marketing says that it can reduce the carbon emissions by up to 80% (which is highly optimistic) but in no way can they meet 100% because plants don't magically grow in the quantities required and magically turn into jet fuel waiting to be loaded on to aircraft. The title of your article compares aviation against road travel, but the title is not supported by the content... there isn't a single line talking about the advancements being made in road travel!! I know there are laws in various jurisdictions to force the conversion of road transportation to electric by dates between 2035 and 2050; what laws exist in the aviation market that enforce a move SAF fuels by 2050? I can see all a lot of manufacturers of electric road vehicles making progress right now, I see progress on the power grid... what meaningful progress has been made with SAF fuels that show it is on a faster trajectory that road transportation? With cars going electric what are the assumed sources of energy for cars that would support this argument? If SAF fuels are affordable and somehow magically have net zero emissions when you burn them, then why wouldn't power plants and any remaining road vehicles be using them? You would need to have evidence that a SAF fuel supply chain will exist in 2040 that can replace all the aviation fuel used today, and that airlines will use it (i.e. it will be available and cost effective)... is that in the ICAO and NACC info? You would need evidence that the burning of the fuel during flight, the refinement process to create the fuel, the carbon released to create fertilizer for this crop, and the land cleared to make this crop would release less carbon than the growing of plants used to create the fuel would capture from the atmosphere. There is no where near enough evidence to support your statement.

Some good questions:

The advantages of air transportation over road is stark on both a regulatory and a technology level.

Air travel is governed by a high regulated combination of federal authorities from each country working together at an international level through ICAO. Long term this enables enforcement of strict operating guidelines and emissions targets. For instance while the CORSIA offset program is voluntary today it become mandatory in 2028.

The SAF ramp up target is ambitious but doable and has long term financial benefits as well as emissions ones. This includes secure locally produced fuel supplies from waste products, and the fact that SAF is just a better fuel with a better energy density per pound.

On the technology front, while electric cars have made great strides, and some states and even nations will enforce that all new road vehicles will need to be electric, this is still a minority of vehicles worldwide. There is no international authority enforcing or providing incentives to move completely to electric. I am a long term EV owner ( one of the original Chevy volts in Canada) and the lack of progress has been discouraging, but at least there is progress.

Electric and hybrid electric Aviation is on its way, and could dominate new aircraft delivery’s by 2040, but Aviations real road to carbon neutrality is the not so secret ability of existing jets engines to burn almost anything.

While today’s gasoline powered piston engine cars and trucks require a highly refined fuel supply, (automotive biofuels eat into food production feed stock such as corn ethanol), SAF can be made from everything from sewage to wood waste.

While diesel cars and trucks have less stringent tolerances, you still have the problem that road transportation consumes 10 times the fuel that aviation does. Also gasoline powered cars and trucks are the dominate type in production today with no end in sight. These legacy gasoline powered vehicles would require a huge agricultural land foot print to support. Given that people like to eat, and that legacy gasoline cars and trucks are still being produced around the world with no way to mandate an end to production, there is no point in the future where road transportation can achieve net carbon zero.

In contrast the ICAO road map for net carbon zero by 2050 is backed by the teeth of an international United Nations agency and federal aviation regulators around the world. While shifting a trillion dollar aviation industry to net carbon zero will be a historic feat, it is doable. Not so much for road transportation.
 
I swear Mark has in the past complained about exessive regulations hampering business and innovation, but is now using it as a pro for the aviation industry.

Also say what you will about ev/hybrid vehicle penetration but there are literally 50 yr old aircraft still flying regularly. Can't say that about a 50 yr old car, unless it's at a classic car show.
 
In contrast the ICAO road map for net carbon zero by 2050 is backed by the teeth of an international United Nations agency and federal aviation regulators around the world. While shifting a trillion dollar aviation industry to net carbon zero will be a historic feat, it is doable. Not so much for road transportation.
"A decade ago, aviation experts forecast SAF would be anywhere from 1% to 5% of their fuel supply by 2020. Since the first major airline test using a biojet blend 12 years ago, it has been used in fuel for nearly 250,000 flights globally, usually at no more than a 50/50 split, according to industry group IATA. For context, though, that’s two average days of passenger and cargo flights on jet fuel, pre-coronavirus."

So in a decade SAF fuels have penetrated the market at 0.5%. Where is the international teeth you are speaking of? Let me do the math and extrapolate that to 2050. Ooops, it missed the target. Other stats show that the when SAF fuels are being used today they are often mixed with traditional aviation fuels 5% SAF to 95% traditional. Additionally SAF fuels are over 3 times more expensive. Considering aviation has long been on a race to the bottom in terms of service to find every last cent they can reduce fares to pass that onto the consumer, post pandemic I can't see them in a rush to increase one of their largest expenses by 300%.

On the technology front, while electric cars have made great strides, and some states and even nations will enforce that all new road vehicles will need to be electric, this is still a minority of vehicles worldwide. There is no international authority enforcing or providing incentives to move completely to electric.

With no regulations currently forcing EV sales, it now represents 3% market share for cars sold and that doesn't include all the hybrids (and the 0.5% SAF fuel market share seems hybrid considering a mix of 5% SAF fuel to traditional).

Aviation fuel isn't that different from diesel. If SAF fuel is produced at reasonable prices it will end up having its supply challenged by the other transportation sectors like trucking. It is hard to argue that somehow a green fuel at the right price point will be available to aviation and not available to trucking. Interestingly enough, if you head down to the local gas station the diesel is also likely to already be a mix of 5% biofuel, and in many places there is a mix of 10% ethanol for gasoline. So, SAF fuel isn't helping aviation win any race with the road that I can see.
 
The comparison to driving is bunk now that the feds are putting in place a legislated ban on new car sales with internal combustion engines, in 2035. Not to mention that major automakers themselves are pledging to get rid of tailpipes by 2035. Come 2035, commercial aviation won't be close to implementing a 25% mandate on SAF, let alone the 50-100% it would take to compete with driving. Aside from the fact that driving is only relevant to comparison with short haul flying that we're moving away from.

Let's remember that the Europeans are starting to enact bans on short-haul flights that are within a 2.5 hr train ride of the airport. Roughly applied to HFR, this would exclude flights from London, Kingston, Waterloo and Ottawa. Spend a bit more on HSR and Montreal could be brought in to the fold. What's the business case without these flights?
Take these flights out of the mix and Pearson has more room. Combine that with the growth of Dorval and it's really hard to make an argument another hub in the GTA.

The best pitch for Pickering has always been to combine Oshawa, Buttonville and Markham into one aerodrome. These fantasies of another Pearson are unfortunately making that unlikely.

Somebody feel free to regurgitate this to Mark since he blocked me for my inconvenient views. I'm curious to know how he squares a legislated ban on ICEVs with his assertion that aviation is moving faster. Or his answer to why we should have any short haul driving or flying, now that we will have trains to major cities.
 

Back
Top