Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[MarkBrooks]

Pointless and unnecessary, adds nothing to the discussion other than an attempt at bragging. I was was at the blue jays game last night, does anyone care? But then I'm the troll



Mark I'm not going to go back through multiple years of posts but I am certain at some point here in this forum you admitted to being part of a pro Pickering lobby group, in fact you did it yesterday as well:

Also you are the author of the website pickeringairport.org whose articles you link to on this site regularly. So either you have a vested interest in Pickering happening or you don't which is it?

So by making comments like: you sound like you are even more involved in the Pickering proposal and perhaps have airlines who have expressed interest but do not want to be named just yet. Do you think that is too far a leap of logic Mark? Because I don't

What’s with the conspiracy theory gig? why is it ok for someone to push Hamilton and its airport, or Pearson, but the moment someone supports Durham and an airport in Pickering he is an industry lobbyist? Does this mean if someone pushes building out Hamilton he is a Hamilton lobbyist? Hardly.

Of course I live in the eastern GTA, of course we would all benefit from the jobs, growth and prosperity the airport will bring. How does this make me a lobbyist? In the last civic election pro growth and Pro airport Candidates won across the board. The citizens of Durham have spoken and they want an airport!

I have a bit more in-depth knowledge due to my volunteer work ( President of the Buttonville flying club, role in the Pickering Airpark etc) and am going out of my way to share that knowledge with my fellow citizens. If it doesn’t fit the narrative you have been feed before, think of it as an opportunity to improve your knowledge.

Given some of the weird misinformation pushed into the press and retold online ( including here) myself and others have become even more determined to correct the record.

Alternative facts, conspiracy theory’s and bigotry of one region over another is divisive and should be discouraged if we wish our democracy well.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Guys, guys, guys.... Mark wants Toronto to have it's very own, but much more costlier Mirabel. Pickering will end up being a cargo/GA airport. However, it will have been so overbuilt that it will make anything we have done prior look like a well thought out thing.

He can't/wont name airlines that would switch over/start from there.
He expects the government to pay for it.
He shrinks the catchment to a point that he can argue against Hamilton.
He ignores the fact that most people will just use Pearson.

Facts are facts, and those, are the facts.

spreading misinformation , saying that I said the opposite of what I actually stated, with no apparent intention of honestly interacting or debating an issue, places you at a disadvantage in continuing. How do you intend to regain credibility after a statement like that?

And why should anyone respond to anything further that you say?

 

[kEiThZ]

After all, why should objections from Hamilton, two hours to the west, stall the development of Durham ?

Because airspace and land owned by the feds are shared (and finite) resources.

Alternative facts, conspiracy theory’s and bigotry of one region over another is divisive and should be discouraged if we wish our democracy well.

A truly ironic statement given the source.....

And why should anyone respond to anything further that you say?

Keep asking Mark tough questions and eventually he'll be talking to himself.....

 

[mdrejhon]

Regarding "Bashing YHM to Uplift Pickering":

You dare open this Pandora Box, I am opening it!

Regardless of status of Pickering and Hamilton (let's set arguments aside please), the slamming of Hamilton's potential is nonsensical regardless of whether Pickering (sensibly-sized, not Mirabel-sized) happens or not, so it is time for me to barge in again with some facts.

Regardless of who's squealing about whatever airport.....Let's remember the Pickering timelines means that Hamilton will already have rapid transit too, so go apples-vs-apples in futuretime, not todaytime. Hamilton exists so it's a smaller upgrade, Pickering is currently mostly nonexistent (lands reserved).

For those unfamiliar, the pre-existing Hamilton BLAST plan, and the A-Line rapid transit may be an LRT.

Once the B-Line construction is well under way, discussions (2022, 2026 elections) will ensue about how A-Line will form -- as a BRT or LRT.

- Hourly allday GO train service by 2025
- 15min allday GO train service by 2041
- A-Line LRT
This is part of the Metrolinx 2041 Regional Transportation Plan. Even if only one-third to one-half of the routes get built, the A-Line and B-Line is the two priority lines, and they begin B-Line construction next year. One of the things that goes on will be digging up the routes is upgrading/relocating/refreshing the utilities (pipelines, natural gas, water mains, sewers, fiber optics). A portion of the $1B LRT budget is intentionally covering the underground-infra-upgrade costs.

See where I am getting at? Part of the early A-Line study/discussions (during the Rapid Transit days) also mentioned the potential of a Jet-A pipeline underneath the tracks, as part of the idea. The nature of digging up roads also provides an opportunity to install new infrastructure (e.g. Jet-A pipeline) which undoubtedly will be factored into the funding of the A-Line project (if it is an LRT) by ~2041.

Those who know little about Hamilton, and how the community, neighbours, and locals banded together to spend a lot of money protecting our LRT (Disclosure: I spent almost a grand myself in the #yesLRT compaign. Disclosure2: My spouse Alain Bureau ran as city councillor candidate), and Hamilton had a landslide win against the #NOLRT mayor.

We are the only city in the world that did not need a city name as part of the LRT hashtag -- google #yesLRT and it's 100% Hamilton owned hashtag. We even out-rally-sized all historical Canadian LRT rallies (in bigger cities to boot too!) and out-manoevered the "STOP THE BILLION DOLLAR TRAIN" mayor candidate. That's how fierce the local hard-won LRT fight was. For more reading, see the Hamilton LRT Thread. It's not smooth sailing though but even Ford respects the local vote that cost-cutting did not touch the Hamilton LRT budget -- that's how hard fought Hamilton was. The support even crossed party lines locally. Things are mostly coasting quiet-mode till the April 2020 awarding and late-2020 construction start for B-Line, but I personally know hundreds here are ready to leap if any problems in #yesLRT support happens.

Relevant to a 25 year masterplan: Pickering can begin with a GA airport but it's going to take more than year 2041 for it to grow to a real Pearson-competing airport. By then, we'll potentially already have a possible Jet-A pipeline and a possible train to our airport. (Even if it bumps to 2051 or 2061, YHM will still be ahead thanks to concurrent progress on Hamilton & Pickering). Sure, West Harbour can be viewed as a "too-early" boondoggle but it's the currently planned allday 2way station (2025) since they're already (slowly, late) building infrastructure including that big Metrolinx GO railyard (with electrification provisions) near Grimsby that is now already active -- that portends allday GO service on portions of the south shore of Lake Ontario. Even when you triple the time estimates (political wills) the numbers show it's still ahead of Pickering in the infrastructure horse race. The 25year masterplan shows hourly allday to Hamilton by 2025, and 15-min allday to Hamilton by 2041. The timelines may shift but I attended several of these consultation meetings. I know not all routes get built, but some definitely do, and that's my focus.

Relevant to a 50 year masterplan: Although it does not look like USA is going to electrify the Empire corridor to Buffalo just yet, this may inevitably happen in a 50-year window. Metrolinx has decided to incrementally upgrade train service to Niagara. And 15-min RER to Hamilton may even be electric. Connect the dots and you'll see where this is going. It is wholly possible that by ~2050, we'll have some form of electric medium/faster train service (or even theoretically Acela Express style "semi HSR") between Toronto and NYC with a stop in Hamilton that connects to the A-Line LRT. It's not yet within a 25 year timeline, but it's a dark trojan horse that just got slightly likelier with today's Metrolinx announcement (doubling of West Harbour, improvements to Niagara GO, etc, completion of new 3rd railroad track to Hamilton with that final Desjardins Canal bridge connection made this month). Shoulda happened 2015, 4 years late, boohoo, but it's progress forward that's nonexistent on the Peterborough line. The two horses will probably progress (and probably occasionally leapfrog) concurrently over the next 25 years. Incredibly, Niagara that has succeeded in accelerating GO train service 4 years ahead of schedule, which has already affected Hamilton (it's now possible to take a GO train between Niagara Falls & Hamilton West Harbour! Albiet at some odd-ish times only favourable to StCat/Niagara residents who have school/work in Hamilton -- but this will change over time). And apparently, Ford was the one that accelerated that particular domino. This only benefits YHM longterm.

I am armed with a feast of knowledge about the local rapid transit saga / ups / downs / successes that is also (eventually 25 year timeline) pertinent to YHM future. This post only touches less than 1% of my knowledge. Just watch Hamilton for the next 25 years worth of 2-step-backward-3-step-forward, succeeding in uplifting YHM. Sure, we are not happy with dysfunction of our local goverments, but credit where credit due. Whether Pickering gets built or not -- meddle with Hamilton and lots of local residents/businesses/politicans come to defense. One will be opening a very major Pandora Box if one try to suppress YHM to get Pickering built. Do not underestimate Hamilton . The continual dismissing-away of Hamilton neglects to acknowledge that between the dysfunction are some spectacular successes and great domino-effect flipping. Even with just 10% of what I know happening (90% cancellations), still big-boosts YHM.

Yes, things get delayed, yes things are cancelled. Yes, things are late. Yes, things flipflop. But credit where credit due.

At forum-banter level, one may like to dismiss Pickering to protect Hamilton (or vice versa as I have admittedly done too) but the matter of fact is YHM exists and Pickering does not. If both progresses forward concurrently, there's already a big headstart for YHM including because of what I already know. When Pickering becomes startered as a perhaps-sensible-sized GA replacing Buttonvile, YHM will have further upgraded by then. It's a long way (century-long progress IMHO) to catch up for Pickering GA to gradually progress to a true Pickering international passenger airport. If politicians start to try bashing YHM interests to uplift Pickering -- it is going to wake a lot of larger sleeping giants in Hamilton. So we all need to back slowly away from that particular Pandora Box -- even if Pickering GA gets startered on its own benefit/accord independently of YHM improvement.

Fun topic, eh?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Of course, not being a pilot, I was unaware that Carp and Gatineau had airfields. Are they part of the commercial traffic mix for Ottawa? I'm not sure the 'passenger-to-population' ratio for Ottawa is a fair comparator in relation to other cities, being that Ottawa is the centre of the Canadian government/bureaucratic universe.

It's a similar kind of catchment area as Pickering, but Ottawa doesn't serve anywhere near 12 million passengers a year. Edmonton and Winnipeg have smaller areas, but are relatively comparable cities (Ottawa just happens to be close to Montreal hence a much bigger catchment)

There's been occasional attempts at commercial service in Gatineau, but the main competitor other than Montreal is Ogdensburg NY, which upgraded their airport to serve the Ottawa market.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's a similar kind of catchment area as Pickering, but Ottawa doesn't serve anywhere near 12 million passengers a year.

Nor should that kind of demand be expected. Look at airports for cities of 1-2 million in the US. They don't have 10+ million pax per year. Not even if their in a large metro area sometimes. Look at Long Beach airport in the LA area for example.

Pearson has the output it has, because it's the hub for two national carriers, which both have massive market share in Canada. Between the two of the them, AC and WS account for ~90% of all domestic pax in Canada. There's nothing close elsewhere, except for maybe Australia.

The Pickering proponents are basing their idea of 10 million pax on the 2.5 million pax annual growth at Pearson over the last 4 years. Look at AC's annual reports and you can figure out exactly where that came from: transborder (and some Latin America) to transatlantic connections. Their local demand at Pearson hasn't grown much. So in essence, this discussion is about facilitating the growth of AC and WS hubs at Pearson. It's not at all about making it easier/cheaper to travel or accommodating demand growth.

The feds may decide that supporting the hubbing growth is warranted. Or they may decide to tell AC and WS to grow their other hubs or build new hubs (Ottawa would be a fantastic candidate). If they decide to add capacity, the question is where. I don't think Pickering becomes an automatic winner.

Ottawa just happens to be close to Montreal hence a much bigger catchment

Ottawa doesn't gain pax from Montreal. It loses pax to Montreal. Airlines run shuttle buses to Ottawa to pick up pax and fly them from Dorval. And plenty of folks drive or train to Dorval to fly from there. If YUL was further away, YOW's number would be higher.

There's been occasional attempts at commercial service in Gatineau, but the main competitor other than Montreal is Ogdensburg NY, which upgraded their airport to serve the Ottawa market.

Some of the service out of Ogdesnsburg is literally subsidized by the US government, as an Essential Air Service. That said, I doubt YOW bleeds more to OGS than it does to YUL.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Ottawa doesn't gain pax from Montreal. It loses pax to Montreal. Airlines run shuttle buses to Ottawa to pick up pax and fly them from Dorval. And plenty of folks drive or train to Dorval to fly from there. If YUL was further away, YOW's number would be higher.

Of course, nobody from Montreal goes to Ottawa to fly out, but the point was the catchment area technically includes Montreal, so population wise it's a good comparison to Pickering. The fact that Ottawans go to Montreal rather than the other way around is a pretty strong indicator of why not to build a major airport in Pickering. It kind of shoots a hole in that the Western GTA will go to Pickering because it's closer.

Ottawans go to Montreal because it has so many options, and is often cheaper

 

[micheal_can]

Guys, guys, guys.... Mark wants Toronto to have it's very own, but much more costlier Mirabel. Pickering will end up being a cargo/GA airport. However, it will have been so overbuilt that it will make anything we have done prior look like a well thought out thing.

He can't/wont name airlines that would switch over/start from there.
He expects the government to pay for it.
He shrinks the catchment to a point that he can argue against Hamilton.
He ignores the fact that most people will just use Pearson.

Facts are facts, and those, are the facts.

spreading misinformation , saying that I said the opposite of what I actually stated, with no apparent intention of honestly interacting or debating an issue, places you at a disadvantage in continuing. How do you intend to regain credibility after a statement like that?

And why should anyone respond to anything further that you say?

We have asked which airlines would fly out of Pickering. You have not said any.
You have specifically said a P3 partnership, which means the government foots the bill.
When we extend the catchment to 1 hour drive, you don't like that.
When we point out AC and WJ are not leaving YYZ you get upset.

Now we find out you are part of a flying club based at Buttonville. You know, Oshawa's Airport is staying around. Why not fly there?

 

[MarkBrooks]

mdrejhon
Thanks for the post, Some great information on Hamilton’s future plans. It is also great to see that you are locally involved in supporting and helping to navigate thorny local civic politics, it can be a thorny environment!

I do not see Hamilton and Pickering Airports as real competition to each other as they cover different population areas, Both are needed once Pearson hits restrictions. Unfortunately many others do.

Having an able LRT connection into Hamilton airport is a great first step To maximizing its value. I encourage you to support airside upgrades to your airport as well.

Around 2028 Pearson hits limits in both airside and passenger capacity. Encouraging Hamilton to the west and Pickering to the east to be ready to handle this overflow is critical to stopping our regions economy from taking a hit.
My position is that Hamilton airport must be upgraded before 2028 to be able to offload the passenger traffic from the western GTA that Pearson will no longer be able to handle.
Pickering airport needs to be ready to do the same for the eastern GTA.

Otherwise draconian measures will be imposed on aviation , such as lifting the night time flight restrictions at pearson.

Two things stand in the way of Hamilton being ready to do its part. The first, as you noted as well, is its fuel farm supply and infrastructure. The second is an upgraded pax terminal.

I see the fuel is the most difficult one, As I have mentioned in other posts this is a volume issue, and limits the airports capacity and flexibility.

Moving dozens of fuel trucks daily from the westover terminal to the airport is doable but costly and with only a small local supply doesn’t have much room for error.
Even the island airport has a challenge (6-8 trucks a day) with barely 200 q400 flights, Porter ( I do not fly for porter ) is filling up at its destination airports and ferrying fuel in. This works due to the q400s small size and short trips

Consider, a single 747 takes up to 6 fuel trucks to fill up.

Hamilton needs to get going on either a rail or a pipeline connection ( Pearson has both, so too can Pickering) and an upgraded fuel farm with a min 3 days supply on hand.

One question on the Hamilton LRT, has anyone done time study’s on how this could reduce the current 2 hour bus trip from Torontos union station to Hamilton airport?

 

[MarkBrooks]

Of course, nobody from Montreal goes to Ottawa to fly out, but the point was the catchment area technically includes Montreal, so population wise it's a good comparison to Pickering. The fact that Ottawans go to Montreal rather than the other way around is a pretty strong indicator of why not to build a major airport in Pickering. It kind of shoots a hole in that the Western GTA will go to Pickering because it's closer.

Ottawans go to Montreal because it has so many options, and is often cheaper

One big difference is that Montreal Trudeau and Mirabel have plenty of capacity, Pearson does not. The push for Pickering is because of Pearson’s capacity issues.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

One big difference is that Montreal Trudeau and Mirabel have plenty of capacity, Pearson does not. The push for Pickering is because of Pearson’s capacity issues.

Mirabel has 0 capacity, it's a race track for cars now

 

[micheal_can]

Mirabel has 0 capacity, it's a race track for cars now

Does that mean Pickering will get a new Racetrack? Awesome!

 

[Kyle Campbell]

One big difference is that Montreal Trudeau and Mirabel have plenty of capacity, Pearson does not. The push for Pickering is because of Pearson’s capacity issues.

The big problem with that argument is that way more than half of the traffic at Pearson isn't going to Toronto, but through Toronto. There's no reason that traffic can't be diverted out of the GTA entirely, and picked up by any major airport in Eastern Canada. Heck, Air Canada could decide Stanfield in Halifax could be expanded to an international hub on the scale of Calgary

 

[micheal_can]

The big problem with that argument is that way more than half of the traffic at Pearson isn't going to Toronto, but through Toronto. There's no reason that traffic can't be diverted out of the GTA entirely, and picked up by any major airport in Eastern Canada. Heck, Air Canada could decide Stanfield in Halifax could be expanded to an international hub on the scale of Calgary

There was a time where Gander was the port of entry.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Mirabel has 0 capacity, it's a race track for cars now

I fly in there monthly and have never Seen a race track.

The goal of the online trolling campaign by the anti Airport folks is to create a toxic environment and shutdown knowledge sharing and discussion. Simple myths like mirabel is closed is one piece of misinformation being repeated in this campaign. So are you a Hapless repeater or an active troller?

I think you might wan to engage Mr google and do some research before spewing toxic nonsense.

Mirabel was built to replace Trudeau, an airport that in the end never closed.
while passenger traffic still uses Trudeau, Mirabel airport is busy, and just upgraded its control tower services.

Things going on at Mirabel-

Bell helicopters about to roll out it’s 5000 helicopter assembled at Mirabel.

Aero Montreal - Quebec's Aerospace Cluster

Aéro Montréal, Quebec's aerospace cluster, is a strategic think tank created in 2006 that groups all the major decision makers in Quebec's aerospace sector

www.aeromontreal.ca

Airbus just built 2 buildings for final CSeries assembly ( now Airbus 220)

Airbus begins building new A220 assembly facilities in Mirabel

Airbus confirms it has kicked off construction of two new buildings in Mirabel that will enable the company to boost production of A220s.

www.flightglobal.com

Or how about the Pratt and Whitney innovation and production center

Pratt & Whitney Canada’s Mirabel Operations » AirInsight

Pratt & Whitney Canada has a major operation at Mirabel Airport north of Montreal where they build the PW800 engine and also builds other models of the PW1000 series geared turbofan for the C Series, Embraer E2s, and forthcoming Mitsubishi RJ, Airbus A320neo, and Irkut MS-21. That operation is...

airinsight.com

Any city would be proud to have Mirabel as an asset, it employs thousands , is a center of innovation and with the space squeeze at Pearson, and the sale of downsview to developers, it is now the largest aviation manufacturing center in Canada.

But don’t let facts get in your way, Troll on. Your put downs of Hamilton, Pearson , and Mirabel are only hurting those with legitimate concerns about a new airport, and making yourself look foolish. Just occasionally, you are also funny.