Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I fly in there monthly and have never Seen a race track.

The goal of the online trolling campaign by the anti Airport folks is to create a toxic environment and shutdown knowledge sharing and discussion. Simple myths like mirabel is closed is one piece of misinformation being repeated in this campaign. So are you a Hapless repeater or an active troller?

I think you might wan to engage Mr google and do some research before spewing toxic nonsense.

Mirabel was built to replace Trudeau, an airport that in the end never closed.
while passenger traffic still uses Trudeau, Mirabel airport is busy, and just upgraded its control tower services.

Things going on at Mirabel-

Bell helicopters about to roll out it’s 5000 helicopter assembled at Mirabel.

Aero Montreal - Quebec's Aerospace Cluster

Aéro Montréal, Quebec's aerospace cluster, is a strategic think tank created in 2006 that groups all the major decision makers in Quebec's aerospace sector

www.aeromontreal.ca

Airbus just built 2 buildings for final CSeries assembly ( now Airbus 220)

Airbus begins building new A220 assembly facilities in Mirabel

Airbus confirms it has kicked off construction of two new buildings in Mirabel that will enable the company to boost production of A220s.

www.flightglobal.com

Or how about the Pratt and Whitney innovation and production center

Pratt & Whitney Canada’s Mirabel Operations » AirInsight

Pratt & Whitney Canada has a major operation at Mirabel Airport north of Montreal where they build the PW800 engine and also builds other models of the PW1000 series geared turbofan for the C Series, Embraer E2s, and forthcoming Mitsubishi RJ, Airbus A320neo, and Irkut MS-21. That operation is...

airinsight.com

Any city would be proud to have Mirabel as an asset, it employs thousands , is a center of innovation and with the space squeeze at Pearson, and the sale of downsview to developers, it is now the largest aviation manufacturing center in Canada.

But don’t let facts get in your way, Troll on. Your put downs of Hamilton, Pearson , and Mirabel are only hurting those with legitimate concerns about a new airport, and making yourself look foolish. Just occasionally, you are also funny.

So there is NO race track on the Mirabel site?

Circuit ICAR - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or are you selectively presenting facts that suit your narrative?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I fly in there monthly and have never Seen a race track.

The goal of the online trolling campaign by the anti Airport folks is to create a toxic environment and shutdown knowledge sharing and discussion. Simple myths like mirabel is closed is one piece of misinformation being repeated in this campaign. So are you a Hapless repeater or an active troller?

I think you might wan to engage Mr google and do some research before spewing toxic nonsense.

Mirabel was built to replace Trudeau, an airport that in the end never closed.
while passenger traffic still uses Trudeau, Mirabel airport is busy, and just upgraded its control tower services.

Things going on at Mirabel-

Bell helicopters about to roll out it’s 5000 helicopter assembled at Mirabel.

Aero Montreal - Quebec's Aerospace Cluster

Aéro Montréal, Quebec's aerospace cluster, is a strategic think tank created in 2006 that groups all the major decision makers in Quebec's aerospace sector

www.aeromontreal.ca

Airbus just built 2 buildings for final CSeries assembly ( now Airbus 220)

Airbus begins building new A220 assembly facilities in Mirabel

Airbus confirms it has kicked off construction of two new buildings in Mirabel that will enable the company to boost production of A220s.

www.flightglobal.com

Or how about the Pratt and Whitney innovation and production center

Pratt & Whitney Canada’s Mirabel Operations » AirInsight

Pratt & Whitney Canada has a major operation at Mirabel Airport north of Montreal where they build the PW800 engine and also builds other models of the PW1000 series geared turbofan for the C Series, Embraer E2s, and forthcoming Mitsubishi RJ, Airbus A320neo, and Irkut MS-21. That operation is...

airinsight.com

Any city would be proud to have Mirabel as an asset, it employs thousands , is a center of innovation and with the space squeeze at Pearson, and the sale of downsview to developers, it is now the largest aviation manufacturing center in Canada.

But don’t let facts get in your way, Troll on. Your put downs of Hamilton, Pearson , and Mirabel are only hurting those with legitimate concerns about a new airport, and making yourself look foolish. Just occasionally, you are also funny.

The race track is where the terminal used to be, not the runway. Mirabel is still a functioning cargo airport and helioport, but it no longer has any passenger facilities. Hence 0 passenger capacity, but you can certainly still fly there.

You can actually go spend the day there and race some exotic cars:

L’ultime Complexe de Sports Motorisés

BIENVENUE AU COMPLEXE ICAR Situé à Mirabel, ICAR est un complexe ultramoderne qui regroupe plusieurs disciplines de sports motorisés. Plus qu'une simple piste de course, ICAR est le terrain de jeu pour les amateurs de sports automobiles.

icarexperience.ca

The terminal was demolished in 2016

Mirabel terminal demolition nears completion - Skies Mag

The final large piece of the terminal building at Montreal—Mirabel International Airport (YMX) was demolished on June 29.

www.skiesmag.com

 

[MarkBrooks]

So there is NO race track on the Mirabel site?

Circuit ICAR - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or are you selectively presenting facts that suit your narrative?

I responded to your myth that mirabel is closed , by letting you know it is very much alive and active.

I have never seen it, but have no doubt that they could host a race , just like they do in Downtown Toronto or Montreal and May very well use the unused unneeded terminal parking and from time to time a runway.
Next time I fly in I will ask for you when the next event is.
But in response to your troll, mirabel very much has lots of aviation capacity and is a multi billion dollar public asset.

 

[kEiThZ]

The idea that Pickering and Hamilton don't compete is laughable. Particularly when Mark is purporting that both airfields want to draw/displace traffic from the same place: Pearson.

Even Billy Bishop is competing with Pickering. Would Pickering boosters be happy to see a runway extension and the introduction of jets at YTZ? What would that do to their business case?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

The idea that Pickering and Hamilton don't compete is laughable. Particularly when Mark is purporting that both airfields want to draw/displace traffic from the same place: Pearson.

Even Billy Bishop is competing with Pickering. Would Pickering boosters be happy to see a runway extension and the introduction of jets at YTZ? What would that do to their business case?

Even further afield, I would assume if gate capacity was reached at Pearson, the next logical choice is to use some spare capacity in Montreal. Ottawa also has plenty of capacity and a much bigger airport than Hamilton, so people elsewhere in Ontario might end up using it to go internationally or transborder, freeing up more space in Pearson for Torontonians.

There's a *lot* of traffic between Pearson and YOW. Just having YOW serve it's own international traffic frees up space.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I responded to your myth that mirabel is closed , by letting you know it is very much alive and active.

I have never seen it, but have no doubt that they could host a race , just like they do in Downtown Toronto or Montreal and May very well use the unused unneeded terminal parking and from time to time a runway.
Next time I fly in I will ask for you when the next event is.
But in response to your troll, mirabel very much has lots of aviation capacity and is a multi billion dollar public asset.

I never stated that mirabel is closed. Please show me the post where I did this or stop putting words in my mouth. You stated:

I fly in there monthly and have never Seen a race track.

, and I provided a wikipedia link describing the race track and it's use. You then double down on your own disbelief by stating that the track was a temporary track a la Toronto's Indy track at the Ex grounds

I have never seen it, but have no doubt that they could host a race , just like they do in Downtown Toronto or Montreal and May very well use the unused unneeded terminal parking and from time to time a runway.

, instead of just admitting that you were wrong/misinformed. Had you even bothered to read the Wiki article you would have learned that the site actually has multiple race tracks (A road course, a drag strip, 2 cart tracks, a driftpark, and an offroad course) and hosts WEEKLY events as well as races in the Canadian Touring Car Championship, and the NASCAR Pinty's Series. Hardly a temporary track set up for one week/one race per year but then again since you've seen it, it must not exist.

Talk about troll jobs and conspiracy theories. Is this cloaked ractrack at mirabel also part of the dark cabel at work to prevent the Pickering airport being built?

I'm going to take a few days away from this thread...

 

[kEiThZ]

Even further afield, I would assume if gate capacity was reached at Pearson, the next logical choice is to use some spare capacity in Montreal.

AC has already started growing YUL as their next major hub push.

There's a *lot* of traffic between Pearson and YOW. Just having YOW serve it's own international traffic frees up space.

Other than one offs like LHR or FRA, Ottawa won't be getting many new international flights. Not enough to fill a plane to each destination. Ottawa is just going to feed YUL a lot more. Dorval is AC's next Pearson.

 

[MarkBrooks]

So there is NO race track on the Mirabel site?

Circuit ICAR - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or are you selectively presenting facts that suit your narrative?

What narrative would that be? Mirabel is a operating airport with lots of aviation capacity that’s a fact. Lots of fuel capacity etc .

 

[Kyle Campbell]

AC has already started growing YUL as their next major hub push.



Other than one offs like LHR or FRA, Ottawa won't be getting many new international flights. Not enough to fill a plane to each destination. Ottawa is just going to feed YUL a lot more. Dorval is AC's next Pearson.

I agree. It was that in order, you could fill Pearson, then fill Dorval, then fill Ottawa (and probably Halifax and maybe even Quebec City as well in parallel) before you'd have to build another 12 million+ GTA airport. Heck, you could even reactivate Mirabel itself as a passenger airport first, as Mark has mentioned it has all the infrastructure in place already, it would just need a passenger terminal building again. All of which would be more incremental and cheaper than a greenfield development in Pickering.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I agree. It was that in order, you could fill Pearson, then fill Dorval, then fill Ottawa (and probably Halifax and maybe even Quebec City as well in parallel) before you'd have to build another 12 million+ GTA airport. Heck, you could even reactivate Mirabel itself as a passenger airport first, as Mark has mentioned it has all the infrastructure in place already, it would just need a passenger terminal building again. All of which would be more incremental and cheaper than a greenfield development in Pickering.

I'm basically saying that it's very unlikely to have a 3rd hub in Eastern Canada, and if there was one it's even unlikelier the GTA would have a second one. Ottawa has a better chance of that unlikely scenario than a field in Pickering

 

[micheal_can]

What narrative would that be? Mirabel is a operating airport with lots of aviation capacity that’s a fact. Lots of fuel capacity etc .

But it does not act as an international airport or a hub airport.

By the sounds of it, you fly little planes. Likely a Cessna or something like it. I bet you cannot land at Pearson or Trudeau airport. If Pickering is built out like you suggest, you won't be able to land there either.

What would somewhere rather have: Prime farmland or a large runway with some industries using it?

Many airlines in the USA have you connect several times. A flight from NY to LA for the most part has some other connection somewhere else. What if they did that in Canada? I'll bet that Halifax would become a major hub for trans Atlantic flights. I would be from there major flights would exist to places like Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary and Edmonton. Instead Pearson is the major hub with Trudeau being second. You are trying to make Pickering fit there. It won't. Not with how the airlines operate in Canada.

I "troll" when you say nonsensical things. Make sense, and most of us would stop.

 

[lenaitch]

Pearson has rail-based fuel supply?

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree. It was that in order, you could fill Pearson, then fill Dorval, then fill Ottawa (and probably Halifax and maybe even Quebec City as well in parallel) before you'd have to build another 12 million+ GTA airport.

I'm basically saying that it's very unlikely to have a 3rd hub in Eastern Canada, and if there was one it's even unlikelier the GTA would have a second one. Ottawa has a better chance of that unlikely scenario than a field in Pickering

Beyond Montreal, AC would probably try and grow Vancouver and Calgary (their existing other hubs) and then if pinched Halifax. Ottawa and Quebec City is just too far inland and too close to Montreal be a US/South America trans-atlantic hub. Halifax can act as a sort of Boston-esque hub for the US Northeast.

If Ottawa is considered at all, it will be an airline other than Air Canada. Say Porter or Westjet. I wouldn't expect any airline to really consider hubbing there any time soon.

The thing is, you don't need a hubbing airline to build a major airport. The problem for Mark & Co. though is that the demand they keep citing at Pearson is not organic. It's mostly coming from AC's hubbing. Which means, the demand for offset capacity is also artificial. So if the government decides to build Pickering, it's not going to be about cheap airfare for you and me, it's going to be about making room at Pearson for Air Canada.

I take exception to Mark's BS, because he's not honest about all this. And is trying to portray a massive public investment as entirely beneficial to the public, when it's very much about benefiting the shareholders of all these airlines. The public needs to ask what's in it for them.

Heck, you could even reactivate Mirabel itself as a passenger airport first, as Mark has mentioned it has all the infrastructure in place already, it would just need a passenger terminal building again.

Airbus is buying something like 3-8x the amount of land that the CSeries/A220 plant currently covers. Mirabel is already a major industrial facility now, and all the aerospace companies in the area are investing hundreds of millions to grow production there. It won't be used as a major passenger airport in our lifetimes.

A flight from NY to LA for the most part has some other connection somewhere else.

Ummm. No. There's dozens of daily flights between New York and LA, when you consider LAX, LGB, ONT and SNA in the LA metro area and JFK and EWR in the NYC metro area. Some of those flights are on 300 seater 777s. The only way you're connecting is if you're flying into LaGuardia, since LGA has a perimeter rule for service.

Generally as a rule in the US, any airport in the top 10 metro areas is connected to about the top 20 metro areas in the country. But that's also because US cities are substantially larger than our own. So they have the traffic to facilitate more direct routes. Any Vancouver-Halifax service would be limited to 2-3 flights a day with direct service, but would have over a dozen options if connecting.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'll bet that Halifax would become a major hub for trans Atlantic flights. I would be from there major flights would exist to places like Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary and Edmonton. Instead Pearson is the major hub with Trudeau being second. You are trying to make Pickering fit there. It won't. Not with how the airlines operate in Canada.

None of those cities need a Canadian hub to access Europe. Next generation airliners like the 321LR/XLR now make it possible for several of those cities to be served directly by a European carrier from their hubs with 180-200 seats. Norwegian's jaunt in Hamilton is the first of many. But they aren't a network carrier.

I expect in the coming years to see Aer Lingus (now owned by IAG) launch narrowbody transatlantic service to Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax and maybe Hamilton. If the 321XLR's performance improves and they can swing it, I expect Winnipeg and Calgary next.

The 321XLR has 4700 nautical miles of range. Let's be conservative and assign a real world range of 3500nm growing to 4000nm by 2025. Here's what that would look like from Dublin:

A map from the Great Circle Mapper

A map from the Great Circle Mapper

www.gcmap.com

There's a temptation to think about this entirely from our perspective. The reality is that it's far easier for European carriers to funnel us through their hubs, than it is for us to have a Canadian trans-Atlantic hub. We can't offer a significant amount of Canadian destinations on our side of the hub. AC's trans-Atlantic hubs are only growing because they are serving the US and Latin America. Not because there's a lot more Canadians suddenly flying to Europe. And even that is subject to an anti-trust immunized Joint Venture agreement between AC, United and the Lufthansa group of airlines. That's what is enabling AC's growth in the US. No other Canadian cartier is part of a JV.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Pearson has rail-based fuel supply?

Yes, it’s on Torbram Rd, has 4- 5 days supply in four big tanks, if I recall correctly, it uses the CN line.