Ottawa Transit Developments

[gweed123]

Lincoln Fields is not available.

The city's priority is serve the growing suburbs south of the airport. The choice is to spend millions on rail or millions on roads. The city has chosen rail and it is overdue. The city cannot justify spending on the airport spur with limited ridership at the expense of those who actually pay taxes.

Without provincial support, I highly question how the city proceeds. All the design work and EAs are done, and the bidding process is complete. Major revisions will mean that much work has to be redone. This means delays measured in years.

It may mean whatever they choose not to proceed with will have to go through an EA again, like the Trillium Line extension did after the original N-S LRT plan was canned.

But I still don't buy the idea that the City would say "because we didn't get $1 billion of this $3 billion plan, we're not going to build anything". The $3 billion plan will just become a $2 billion plan, with some difficult choices about what gets the axe being made.

We saw the same process happen in 2008 (ish?) when McGuinty cut Transit City from a ~$12 billion plan to an ~$8 billion plan. Eglinton West, the eastern portion of Finch West, the eastern end of Sheppard East, and the Malvern extension of the SLRT got 'deferred', but the remaining portions of those 4 priority lines proceeded. Rob Ford came in 2 years later and threw a grenade into the entire thing, but that's beside the point here.

 

[lrt's friend]

It may mean whatever they choose not to proceed with will have to go through an EA again, like the Trillium Line extension did after the original N-S LRT plan was canned.

But I still don't buy the idea that the City would say "because we didn't get $1 billion of this $3 billion plan, we're not going to build anything". The $3 billion plan will just become a $2 billion plan, with some difficult choices about what gets the axe being made.

We saw the same process happen in 2008 (ish?) when McGuinty cut Transit City from a ~$12 billion plan to an ~$8 billion plan. Eglinton West, the eastern portion of Finch West, the eastern end of Sheppard East, and the Malvern extension of the SLRT got 'deferred', but the remaining portions of those 4 priority lines proceeded. Rob Ford came in 2 years later and threw a grenade into the entire thing, but that's beside the point here.

Anything is possible I suppose, but without provincial funding, and the resulting delays into the next provincial election, Doug Ford should not count on one seat in Ottawa. Despite the unpopularity of Kathleen Wynne, PC support in Ottawa actually fell in last year's election. That was what happened in the 2014 election when Tim Hudak would not commit to support Phase 2. PC support collapsed. Ottawa taxpayers are already very sensitive about how we got screwed on Phase 1, compared to projects in the Toronto area.

 

[nfitz]

Ottawa taxpayers are already very sensitive about how we got screwed on Phase 1, compared to projects in the Toronto area.

Given that the Progressive Conservatives are trying to upload the TTC subway to the province, allowing the City of Toronto to reduce property taxes, surely Ottawa is pushing for the same deal.

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

 

[gweed123]

Anything is possible I suppose, but without provincial funding, and the resulting delays into the next provincial election, Doug Ford should not count on one seat in Ottawa. Despite the unpopularity of Kathleen Wynne, PC support in Ottawa actually fell in last year's election. That was what happened in the 2014 election when Tim Hudak would not commit to support Phase 2. PC support collapsed. Ottawa taxpayers are already very sensitive about how we got screwed on Phase 1, compared to projects in the Toronto area.

I wouldn't think the delay would be that big. It's easier to remove items from a tender package than add them. Like I said, the hard part will be deciding what to remove.

But you're right that if this falls through 2022 will not be kind for Doug and the PCs in Ottawa, especially considering that timeline lines up nicely with the "this is when (Extension X) was scheduled to open".

Given that the Progressive Conservatives are trying to upload the TTC subway to the province, allowing the City of Toronto to reduce property taxes, surely Ottawa is pushing for the same deal.

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

There would be no reason to upload at this point. The Confederation Line has a 30-year maintenance contract included. Whatever gets built in Phase II will likely have the same provision.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Given that the Progressive Conservatives are trying to upload the TTC subway to the province, allowing the City of Toronto to reduce property taxes, surely Ottawa is pushing for the same deal.

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

Mr Ford is only interested in Toronto's subways, not trains anywhere else in the province. Actually his general reaction to anything outside the GTA is "meh". For us outside the GTA, it definitely has its pluses, but the downside is that money won't be coming our way.

 

[lrt's friend]

Given that the Progressive Conservatives are trying to upload the TTC subway to the province, allowing the City of Toronto to reduce property taxes, surely Ottawa is pushing for the same deal.

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

There is no talk of uploading our rail lines to the province. Ottawa's transit system is already regional because the city boundaries are so broad. What we would be more interested in is an interprovincial transit authority. But nobody in power is talking about it.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Given that the Progressive Conservatives are trying to upload the TTC subway to the province, allowing the City of Toronto to reduce property taxes, surely Ottawa is pushing for the same deal.

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

The average property tax on Ottawa is much higher, around 4700. However property taxes tend to be in inverse proportion to city size.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Or perhaps Ottawa property taxes are not as high? Toronto taxes continue to increase, with City of Toronto portion over $2,900 on an average house!

Toronto's property tax rate is among the lowest in the province. Toronto's MPAC assessments however are the highest in the province which skews property tax paid vs property tax rate.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Toronto's property tax rate is among the lowest in the province. Toronto's MPAC assessments however are the highest in the province which skews property tax paid vs property tax rate.

This article gives a good comparison. The runaway price inflation in Toronto has skewed things lately, but it used to be true that you'd pay less taxes in a denser city like Toronto. There's a certain base cost regardless of population to providing services, and smaller cities usually need higher taxes to fund that initial base level. The rest of the costs scale as population grows

The Best And Worst Cities In Canada For Property Taxes

Vancouver has North America's least affordable housing market ... and its lowest property tax rates.

www.google.com

 

[nfitz]

This article gives a good comparison. The runaway price inflation in Toronto has skewed things lately, but it used to be true that you'd pay less taxes in a denser city like Toronto.

That article seems to look at the property tax paid, rather than the municipal tax paid. And it also bases it on an arbitrary amount ($1 million) rather than looking at average amounts paid.

The municipal portion shouldn't be too skewed by price inflation, as they simply take the required municipal tax amount and divide it by the tax base, to obtain the rate. The rate itself is pretty meaningless. But the provincial property tax portion is skewed to tax more in those municipalities where housing is more expensive.

Also it's misleading, as some of those municipalities tax rates include services (such as water and garbage pickup) which are billed independently in some municipalities, and not paid through property tax.

Generally taxes are higher where densities are lower - as you require more cost for each resident. Just look at the amount of road necessary per house even for single detached, when there's 60-foot lots, compared to 15 or even 20-foot lots!

 

[kEiThZ]

If they have to cut a billion, there's only one easy and logical path. Cut the Orleans extension and everything after the airport.

It's easy to cut Orleans because Blair station will already be set up as a large bus terminus and working well. Just have to keep that going till they can eventually build the suburban extension. This is not the case in the west, where Tunney's pasture isn't a great terminus for western suburbanites. Extending to Moodie and Baseline will give Kanata and Barrhaven a closer approximation to what Orleans residents have at Blair.

The Riverside South extension is low ridership and single track. It can be self-funded later as long as the right-of-way is reserved. What's needed on Trillium is capacity boosting on the existing corridor and enabling some connection to the airport. So if more cuts are needed after cutting Orleans, everything beyond the airport should be on the chopping block.

That said, the western and southern extensions heavily favour PC voting areas. I really can't see the PC caucus agreeing to cut those so easily. They'll be more willing to toss Orleans under the bus.

 

[OCCheetos]

Cutting Moodie extension means there is no place to store Phase 2 trains. That is where the train storage facility will be.

If Moodie is cut then a storage facility will be built near Woodroffe along the CN tracks. Edit: Belfast Yard has also already been expanded to accommodate the additional trains.

Cutting the Riverside South extension means we should cancel Trillium Line Phase 2 entirely. Instead, we will need to invest money in road expansion. Where that money comes from, I don't know.

There are capacity issues on the Trillium Line that need to be addressed. The line as-is can't handle peak traffic on some days, and that'll only get worse. I'd prefer more frequent trains, but the Stage 2 plan to lengthen trains also works..

 

[lrt's friend]

If Moodie is cut then a storage facility will be built near Woodroffe along the CN tracks. Edit: Belfast Yard has also already been expanded to accommodate the additional trains.

There are capacity issues on the Trillium Line that need to be addressed. The line as-is can't handle peak traffic on some days, and that'll only get worse. I'd prefer more frequent trains, but the Stage 2 plan to lengthen trains also works..

A major bus route had to be extended to Carleton University because of capacity issues on the Trillium Line. I highly doubt that they can get away with relocating the Moodie storage facility back to Woodroffe. That has been pretty well ruled out.

 

[OCCheetos]

A major bus route had to be extended to Carleton University because of capacity issues on the Trillium Line.

Which route is that? The 111 has gone to Carleton since (2011) before the last upgrade on the Trillium Line.

I highly doubt that they can get away with relocating the Moodie storage facility back to Woodroffe. That has been pretty well ruled out.

Why's that?
The document on the recommendation of Woodroffe also stated that the expanded Belfast yard could handle service requirements. Not ideal, but still manageable.

 

[lrt's friend]

Route 111 was re-routed as indicated to address the capacity problem on the Trillium Line. It has been that long ago that they needed to address the capacity problem.