Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

Your not going to tell me that Vaughan is in Toronto as well?

And look where else it serves. Barrie and Orillia. The train didn't serve that.

Actually, the Northlander used to go through Barre and Orillia. It does not because CN decided to rip up those tracks. Barrie's bus terminal is where the old train station is. Orillia's station is still there.

Yorkdale is in North York. North York is in the city of Toronto. Vaughan is not in the city of Toronto.

I don't see how that would work. Ridership was pathetically low when there weren't any buses. How will that not half the train ridership? With that, I wouldn't be surprised if the subsidy would increase from $400 to $1000 a passenger.

What do you get by running one train instead of (or as well as) 2 buses? What' the benefit? How will it not need a huge subsidy per passenger now, when it did before?

Ridership in the last year was actually quite high and getting higher.

The line is also used by the elderly to go to Toronto for medical appointments. They used it because it was a smoother ride, not because it wash cheaper. Bus is cheaper, train is more expensive. That does not deter the riders.

 

[nfitz]

Actually, the Northlander used to go through Barre and Orillia. It does not because CN decided to rip up those tracks. Barrie's bus terminal is where the old train station is. Orillia's station is still there.

Sometime last century - as you've pointed out, there's no tracks there anymore. I was talking about the service that was running for the last couple of decades, that had a huge $400 per rider subsidy.

Yorkdale is in North York. North York is in the city of Toronto. Vaughan is not in the city of Toronto.

You said "The first stop out of Toronto is Barrie.. ". I pointed out that wasn't true, as it stopped in Yorkdale, which is in the city of Toronto. I pointed out it also stops in Vaughan ... why not just say "oops, I guess the first stop isn't in Barrie anymore ..." instead of trying to deflect? Am I the only person here who is ever wrong about something?

Ridership in the last year was actually quite high and getting higher.

Quite high? It was perhaps slightly better than the horrific previous year .. but by no standard was it quite high! How does it compare to the ridership now along that corridor - that has seven buses for part of the route!

The line is also used by the elderly to go to Toronto for medical appointments. They used it because it was a smoother ride, not because it wash cheaper. Bus is cheaper, train is more expensive. That does not deter the riders.

So you want to take away a cheaper, more convenient, way for the poor to get to medical appointments? And smoother ride - I must confess that I didn't ever ride it ... but I did ride lots of rail services on crappy lines that didn't have welded rail - and the last thing I would ever call it is smooth! VIA corridor service is smooth sure, normally - but remember what it was like in the 1970s, and even into the 1980s in places, where the rail was bolted together instead of welded?

Surely, the line from Toronto to Cochrane isn't welded once you are north of the GTA?

 

[micheal_can]

Sometime last century - as you've pointed out, there's no tracks there anymore. I was talking about the service that was running for the last couple of decades, that had a huge $400 per rider subsidy.

You said "The first stop out of Toronto is Barrie.. ". I pointed out that wasn't true, as it stopped in Yorkdale, which is in the city of Toronto. I pointed out it also stops in Vaughan ... why not just say "oops, I guess the first stop isn't in Barrie anymore ..." instead of trying to deflect? Am I the only person here who is ever wrong about something?

Quite high? It was perhaps slightly better than the horrific previous year .. but by no standard was it quite high! How does it compare to the ridership now along that corridor - that has seven buses for part of the route!

So you want to take away a cheaper, more convenient, way for the poor to get to medical appointments? And smoother ride - I must confess that I didn't ever ride it ... but I did ride lots of rail services on crappy lines that didn't have welded rail - and the last thing I would ever call it is smooth! VIA corridor service is smooth sure, normally - but remember what it was like in the 1970s, and even into the 1980s in places, where the rail was bolted together instead of welded?

Surely, the line from Toronto to Cochrane isn't welded once you are north of the GTA?

Barrie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1980s Now, maybe you are too young to remember that decade, but it isn't that long ago.

They added a stop at the Vaughan 407 station. I stand corrected. So, from that station to Barrie is still over 70 km.

TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts

www.tvo.org

The per-passenger subsidy also appears to have been lower than the $400 figure they claimed. If you believe the numbers Lysyk used and divide the $11 million that Ontario put in by the average annual ridership of 36,237, you get $303.
the Montreal-Halifax route at $502,
the Toronto-Vancouver route at $434

I rode it from Toronto to North Bay. It is not welded rail, but it was more comfortable than the bus, which I have also taken.

 

[nfitz]

Barrie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1980s ...

I hadn't realised it was that early - I thought it was still running into the 1990s!

Still, that's beside the point. It's not that service that was cut and Doug Ford promised to restore. It's the service up the east side of Lake Simcoe that would be restored. I can't even begin to guess the cost of restoring a rail corridor that hasn't existed for decades - even if I can remember it!

 

[micheal_can]

I hadn't realised it was that early - I thought it was still running into the 1990s!

Still, that's beside the point. It's not that service that was cut and Doug Ford promised to restore. It's the service up the east side of Lake Simcoe that would be restored. I can't even begin to guess the cost of restoring a rail corridor that hasn't existed for decades - even if I can remember it!

Well, from Toronto to Washago it is well used by CN. The line north to North Bay is not used as much, but is used and maintained. North of North Bay, it is owned by the provincial government and is well used and maintained.

Literally, right now, they could connect some passenger cars to an engine and go down the line and it be in no worse condition as before.

 

[nfitz]

Well, from Toronto to Washago it is well used by CN. The line north to North Bay is not used as much, but is used and maintained. North of North Bay, it is owned by the provincial government and is well used and maintained.

Literally, right now, they could connect some passenger cars to an engine and go down the line and it be in no worse condition as before.

That's my point. It wouldn't serve Barrie or Orillia - which have gained service with the switch from one train departure to seven bus departures. Or Sudbury for that matter, which get's 3 of those 7 departures (the other 4 going to North Bay). With the money saved by cutting the very expensive underutilized train, they were able to significantly increase bus service to the north.

That being said, I can see an argument for extending the rail service back to North Bay - but not to Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

That's my point. It wouldn't serve Barrie or Orillia - which have gained service with the switch from one train departure to seven bus departures. Or Sudbury for that matter, which get's 3 of those 7 departures (the other 4 going to North Bay). With the money saved by cutting the very expensive underutilized train, they were able to significantly increase bus service to the north.

That being said, I can see an argument for extending the rail service back to North Bay - but not to Toronto.

You do know that VIA has 2 trains that call Sudbury area home, and one that connects to Toronto?

You mean Cochrane - North Bay? That defeats the purpose of people in the north going to Toronto for medical appointments that they cannot get north of North Bay.

 

[nfitz]

You do know that VIA has 2 trains that call Sudbury area home, and one that connects to Toronto?

... that don't even connect to each other.

That "Sudbury" to Toronto train takes almost 12 hours, and departs Sudbury only twice a week - at around 4 AM. And it's often very, very late. You aren't really going to tell me that's preferable to the bus that runs 3 times a day in only 5 to 5.5 hours!

You mean Cochrane - North Bay? That defeats the purpose of people in the north going to Toronto for medical appointments that they cannot get north of North Bay.

I was taking that need for people to travel for medical reasons quasi-seriously ... but if you are going to peddle it with a twice-weekly train that takes about 250% longer than the much more convenient and frequent bus ... then I'm starting to think that is more just a trumped up justification than a real need.

Surely there's a bigger demand for people in St. Thomas and Chatham who don't even have bus service, to have a connection to Toronto. And why does Northern Ontario need a rail connection, when Peterborough or Orillia don't have one?

I bet that most patients in Sudbury travelling to Toronto are choosing the bus, even though they have a train!

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

And the Minister seems to indicate the "return" is not dead yet and that a report by the citizen group's expert (see the link above) isn't needed (and that's not a comment on the merits of the expert, just what the Minister implied).

RETURN OF PASSENGER TRAINS NOT DEAD: FEDELI

Written by Rocco Frangione All Aboard Northern Ontario may be suspending its drive to make a case for restoring rail passenger service ... more ›

www.mytimminsnow.com

This government claims to be "not dead", yet by this point, they are..

 

[ShonTron]

That's my point. It wouldn't serve Barrie or Orillia - which have gained service with the switch from one train departure to seven bus departures. Or Sudbury for that matter, which get's 3 of those 7 departures (the other 4 going to North Bay). With the money saved by cutting the very expensive underutilized train, they were able to significantly increase bus service to the north.

That being said, I can see an argument for extending the rail service back to North Bay - but not to Toronto.

Of the three daily buses between Toronto and Sudbury, only one stops at Orillia. Still, Orillia does have five buses a day each way (plus Friday/Sunday extras). The kicker was that with the cancellation of the train, northern residents were promised "enhanced bus service." The only thing that changed was the elimination of the bus from Timmins that used to connect to the train at Matheson. (There are two buses a day between Timmins and North Bay. Northbound, one of those trips requires a transfer at Matheson.)

 

[lenaitch]

The 'middle' portion of the CN Newmarket sub (Barrie to Washago) was abandoned in 1996. I assume that's when the Northlander switched to the Bala sub but don't know that for certain. I'm not convinced that providing service to Barrie should be part of the discussion; it is well served by GO rail and bus. Service to Orillia is moot; the tracks and gone and not coming back. The argument for returning service between the northeast and Toronto is to provide a non-road, non-air option. To many, me included, travelling long distances by bus is claustrophobic and uncomfortable. You have virtually no mobility in the vehicle. On a train, at least you can get up and move about the length of the train, perhaps even grab a snack. That can be a huge bonus when travelling with young kids.
Perhaps other southern communities should have service as well, but the fact that they don't doesn't diminish the argument for the northeast. Maybe they are living an unsustainable lifestyle as well.

 

[nfitz]

Of the three daily buses between Toronto and Sudbury, only one stops at Orillia. Still, Orillia does have five buses a day each way (plus Friday/Sunday extras). The kicker was that with the cancellation of the train, northern residents were promised "enhanced bus service." The only thing that changed was the elimination of the bus from Timmins that used to connect to the train at Matheson. (There are two buses a day between Timmins and North Bay. Northbound, one of those trips requires a transfer at Matheson.)

I thought the services had been beefed up significantly. I don't think there were 7 buses to Barrie even last year when I looked. But I can't find a lot of old schedule information right now.

However, looking at a pre-cancellation Ontario Northland map, there seems to be a lot less services than there is now. The North Bay to Ottawa service is not shown. Nor is the Sudbury to North Bay bus, or the Manitoulin Island services. There's no services shown to Sault-Ste. Marie either - isn't there buses from there to both Sudbury and Hearst? And a Matheson to Timmins bus ... yes, twice a day.

Am I missing something - I've seen comments in the past that there has been an increase in Ontario Northland bus services, and looking at the website, it seems to confirm that.

2009 map


2013 Map


2019 Map

 

[Allandale25]

Speaking of Orillia....

UPDATE: Ontario Northland looking for new location in Orillia

Read the full story and comment on OrilliaMatters.

www.orilliamatters.com

 

[micheal_can]

... that don't even connect to each other.

That "Sudbury" to Toronto train takes almost 12 hours, and departs Sudbury only twice a week - at around 4 AM. And it's often very, very late. You aren't really going to tell me that's preferable to the bus that runs 3 times a day in only 5 to 5.5 hours!

I was taking that need for people to travel for medical reasons quasi-seriously ... but if you are going to peddle it with a twice-weekly train that takes about 250% longer than the much more convenient and frequent bus ... then I'm starting to think that is more just a trumped up justification than a real need.

Surely there's a bigger demand for people in St. Thomas and Chatham who don't even have bus service, to have a connection to Toronto. And why does Northern Ontario need a rail connection, when Peterborough or Orillia don't have one?

I bet that most patients in Sudbury travelling to Toronto are choosing the bus, even though they have a train!

Most things can be done in Sudbury. Sudbury's hospital can do most things that can be done in the Toronto hospitals. But, I am not talking about that. I am also not talking about Sudburians.

Lets take someone from Cochrane. Lets say they are refereed to a specialist. Lets say the only ones are in Toronto. How do they get there? The train was a good option.

I do think regular train service to places like Sudbury, Sault St Marie and Thunder Bay should happen. However, the Province of Ontario does not own those lines, they do own north of North Bay.

Of the three daily buses between Toronto and Sudbury, only one stops at Orillia. Still, Orillia does have five buses a day each way (plus Friday/Sunday extras). The kicker was that with the cancellation of the train, northern residents were promised "enhanced bus service." The only thing that changed was the elimination of the bus from Timmins that used to connect to the train at Matheson. (There are two buses a day between Timmins and North Bay. Northbound, one of those trips requires a transfer at Matheson.)

The "enhanced" service goes west of Sudbury/Hearst. That was not served before by ONR.

I thought the services had been beefed up significantly. I don't think there were 7 buses to Barrie even last year when I looked. But I can't find a lot of old schedule information right now.

However, looking at a pre-cancellation Ontario Northland map, there seems to be a lot less services than there is now. The North Bay to Ottawa service is not shown. Nor is the Sudbury to North Bay bus, or the Manitoulin Island services. There's no services shown to Sault-Ste. Marie either - isn't there buses from there to both Sudbury and Hearst? And a Matheson to Timmins bus ... yes, twice a day.

Am I missing something - I've seen comments in the past that there has been an increase in Ontario Northland bus services, and looking at the website, it seems to confirm that.

2009 map
View attachment 174379

2013 Map
View attachment 174384

2019 Map
View attachment 174386

There has been an increase in locations served, but part of that is because Greyhound is no longer serving west of Sudbury.

 

[ShonTron]

Most things can be done in Sudbury. Sudbury's hospital can do most things that can be done in the Toronto hospitals. But, I am not talking about that. I am also not talking about Sudburians.

Lets take someone from Cochrane. Lets say they are refereed to a specialist. Lets say the only ones are in Toronto. How do they get there? The train was a good option.

I do think regular train service to places like Sudbury, Sault St Marie and Thunder Bay should happen. However, the Province of Ontario does not own those lines, they do own north of North Bay.

The "enhanced" service goes west of Sudbury/Hearst. That was not served before by ONR.

There has been an increase in locations served, but part of that is because Greyhound is no longer serving west of Sudbury.

The new routes are nice, but they weren't a replacement for the Northlander, they were put in place to address major gaps left by Greyhound and others. The one trip along Lake Superior connects to a minbus service operated out of Thunder Bay (Kasper). It is nice to see ONTC fill these gaps, but this is a separate issue than what was promised in 2012.

I used to take the Northland bus on occasion from Sudbury to Toronto from 2003 through 2009. There were three trips a day back then, along with Greyhound-operated express runs (Greyhound would not stop between Barrie and Sudbury, except a rest stop at Parry Sound, and no new passengers allowed to board). I quite liked the early evening ride from Sudbury on the ON bus - much quieter and less crowded than the Greyhound, making up for the extra hour it took with the local stops. I also used to sometimes take VIA up for the novelty, back when it was a morning departure from Union, getting off at Sudbury Junction (with an expensive taxi ride to the city centre) or Capreol (where a Sudbury Transit bus would get you downtown).

As for Orillia, I'm surprised that Northland still serves the station, rather than a location closer to Highway 11. I fear that Northland will move to a spot by the highway inconvenient for local residents, but there are a few decent options: the Georgian College campus (near the OPP headquarters) would be close to the highway, but at least serve a trip generator and be accessible to a local bus route. Even the Best Western at Highway 12 and Memorial Drive would work - there's a place to wait out of the cold or rain, with nearby fast food - precedent was set for a hotel stop in Bracebridge.