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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

How would Northlander per-ride-subsidies compare to that of the Union Pearson Express? If I'm an advocate for the Northlander, I would cry hypocrisy that well-off foreign business travellers are being subsidized on UPX while dyed in the wool Northern Ontarians are getting the shaft.
 
mjl08 said:
How would Northlander per-ride-subsidies compare to that of the Union Pearson Express? If I'm an advocate for the Northlander, I would cry hypocrisy that well-off foreign business travellers are being subsidized on UPX while dyed in the wool Northern Ontarians are getting the shaft.
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Northlander was over $400 a ride in 2012 compared to UP being $11 a ride in 2016-2017.

With UP ridership up significantly since then, and the passage of time, I'd say that the subsidy for Northlander per ride is approaching hundred times higher than UP.

Surely with Northlander being replaced by a more frequent and faster bus, at a much lower subsidy (which is likely still more than $11 a ride), isn't it southern Ontarians who are getting the shaft here, having to subsidize an unsustainable lifestyle?
 
mjl08 said:
How would Northlander per-ride-subsidies compare to that of the Union Pearson Express? If I'm an advocate for the Northlander, I would cry hypocrisy that well-off foreign business travellers are being subsidized on UPX while dyed in the wool Northern Ontarians are getting the shaft.
Click to expand...

I wonder what could be done to bring down the operating costs of the Northlander? Use a couple of RDC DMU's? Sounds like there isnt much ridership demand
 
^ I've seen some claim that with a better schedule it could attract more ridership. I think it may depend on the timeslots CN gives them and if any money can be added to any passing tracks to improve reliability. Of course that's me arm chairing on the passing tracks. May not be enough.
 
Allandale25 said:
^ I've seen some claim that with a better schedule it could attract more ridership. I think it may depend on the timeslots CN gives them and if any money can be added to any passing tracks to improve reliability. Of course that's me arm chairing on the passing tracks. May not be enough.
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I don't see how it could possibly attract the same ridership, let alone more, with the much more frequent and quicker bus, unless that service was cancelled. And is that an improvement?

It would be interesting to see ridership numbers now, compared to before when it was done by train.
 
mjl08 said:
How would Northlander per-ride-subsidies compare to that of the Union Pearson Express? If I'm an advocate for the Northlander, I would cry hypocrisy that well-off foreign business travellers are being subsidized on UPX while dyed in the wool Northern Ontarians are getting the shaft.
Click to expand...
nfitz said:
Northlander was over $400 a ride in 2012 compared to UP being $11 a ride in 2016-2017.

With UP ridership up significantly since then, and the passage of time, I'd say that the subsidy for Northlander per ride is approaching hundred times higher than UP.

Surely with Northlander being replaced by a more frequent and faster bus, at a much lower subsidy (which is likely still more than $11 a ride), isn't it southern Ontarians who are getting the shaft here, having to subsidize an unsustainable lifestyle?
Click to expand...

I would ask the better question: What is the per km per passenger subsidy?
 
Allandale25 said:
^ I've seen some claim that with a better schedule it could attract more ridership. I think it may depend on the timeslots CN gives them and if any money can be added to any passing tracks to improve reliability. Of course that's me arm chairing on the passing tracks. May not be enough.
Click to expand...

There might be something to that. There was an uptick when the added a Bracebridge stop (and perhaps Huntsville - I can't remember) to serve Muskoka cottage traffic bu there was an issue of scheduling. To be effective, it needed to be NB Friday evening and SB Sunday evening yet still fit into the rest of the schedule and available CN slots.

But apparently anything north of Steeles is an unsustainable lifestyle.
 
micheal_can said:
The first stop out of Toronto is Barrie...... So, uhm that is more than the short 24 km UP.
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I don't think it is ... I thought I saw a Northland stop at the Yorkdale GO Bus terminal the last time I was there.

Looking at the timetables ... gosh they've added even more buses. There's seven Northland buses a day from Toronto to Barrie (and Orillia), all stopping at Yorkdale. Five of those buses stop at Highway 407 station and five stop at Orillia as well.

I'm not sure how you increase ridership by replacing 7 buses with departures all-day long, with one slow train.

174274
 
nfitz said:
I don't think it is ... I thought I saw a Northland stop at the Yorkdale GO Bus terminal the last time I was there.

Looking at the timetables ... gosh they've added even more buses. There's seven Northland buses a day from Toronto to Barrie (and Orillia), all stopping at Yorkdale. Five of those buses stop at Highway 407 station and five stop at Orillia as well.

I'm not sure how you increase ridership by replacing 7 buses with departures all-day long, with one slow train.

View attachment 174274
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Point taken, but only four go to North Bay daily (one is a midnight Toronto departure). The buses take between 5:10 and 5:50 Toronto to NB with several stops; the Northlander took 5:10 not counting any delays with fewer stops. All things being equal, not much difference in travel times.
 
nfitz said:
I don't think it is ... I thought I saw a Northland stop at the Yorkdale GO Bus terminal the last time I was there.

Looking at the timetables ... gosh they've added even more buses. There's seven Northland buses a day from Toronto to Barrie (and Orillia), all stopping at Yorkdale. Five of those buses stop at Highway 407 station and five stop at Orillia as well.

I'm not sure how you increase ridership by replacing 7 buses with departures all-day long, with one slow train.

View attachment 174274
Click to expand...

First off, what city is Yorkdale GO in? So, yes, it goes to a few stops in Toronto and then heads north with it's first stop in Barrie. That is about 84 km...

The idea is not to remove the bus trips, but to have a train as well. Kinda like how you can take a GO bus from Union to Barrie, and you can also take a GO train.

There are 2 buses that run the entire route between Toronto and Cochrane, and only one following the entire Northlander route.

www.google.ca

Cochrane to Toronto

www.google.ca www.google.ca

So, you would then have 2 buses and 1 train that goes that way, with 1 train and 1 bus following the exact routing.

The train usually has at least 2 passenger cars, if not more. How many buses would it take to fill 1 train car?
 
micheal_can said:
First off, what city is Yorkdale GO in? So, yes, it goes to a few stops in Toronto and then heads north with it's first stop in Barrie. That is about 84 km...\
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Your not going to tell me that Vaughan is in Toronto as well?

And look where else it serves. Barrie and Orillia. The train didn't serve that.

micheal_can said:
The idea is not to remove the bus trips, but to have a train as well. Kinda like how you can take a GO bus from Union to Barrie, and you can also take a GO train.
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I don't see how that would work. Ridership was pathetically low when there weren't any buses. How will that not half the train ridership? With that, I wouldn't be surprised if the subsidy would increase from $400 to $1000 a passenger.

micheal_can said:
There are 2 buses that run the entire route between Toronto and Cochrane, and only one following the entire Northlander route.
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What do you get by running one train instead of (or as well as) 2 buses? What' the benefit? How will it not need a huge subsidy per passenger now, when it did before?
 
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