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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.....

For the very reason you cite - ie transit connectivity at Kingston VIA was inexplicably bad for decades - attending to transit connectivity from the start is not wrong-headed..... where it is possible, and that's a big qualifier.

Having transit links in North Bay and Porcupine is possible and desirable.... clearly we aren't talking 20 minute all day service.... but some connectivity tied to train time is desirable. South River or Temagami, clearly not even that. But even there, it's a fair question to ask why the stop for the once or twice daily bus is on one side of town and the train service stops somewhere else. Maybe with time those gaps can be constructively reduced.

If we never ask the question, it will take longer to happen.... but I agree,let's be realistic when we do ask it.

- Paul
You are understanding what I am getting at. Somewhere like Temagami could be somewhere where you can live car free. Everything is within a short walk. Adding a taxi service that you can call to get you to/from the station would mean there is no need for a car. The other part of this is if an elderly person lives there, alone, why should then need to get a car to bring them to the station? To me, these gaps in service are the next steps that need to be dealt with once the train has arrived. They should have been dealt with by now, but if they don't get resoled, then it still is a substandard service.
 
You are understanding what I am getting at. Somewhere like Temagami could be somewhere where you can live car free. Everything is within a short walk. Adding a taxi service that you can call to get you to/from the station would mean there is no need for a car. The other part of this is if an elderly person lives there, alone, why should then need to get a car to bring them to the station? To me, these gaps in service are the next steps that need to be dealt with once the train has arrived. They should have been dealt with by now, but if they don't get resoled, then it still is a substandard service.

I understand your point, but I think you are imagining things that are a long way away, if ever.
I would not expect a "transit service" to spring up in Temagami, ever. But there is likely already some way of getting people to appointments etc - perhaps it's a Red Cross volunteer, perhaps it's an under or over the table taxi service. (I know of rural church parishes that have organized in-house drivers who charge by the km to get parishioners from their rural homes to go shopping etc). When and if that kind of service becomes formalised, then certainly serving the train ought to be part of the scope. But it may be a long time before that ever became a "route" or an advertised "dial a ride"..
On the other hand, if the train station is two miles from the main highway, I would not necessarily expect a through highway coach to make a four-mile detour just to let people off at the train station on the premise that the town had established an artificial "transit hub". Better to drop people off at a gas station on the highway and not connect the two services.
What I would hope is that the issue is not overlooked in planning, but there may not be a solution available for a decade or two.

- Paul
 
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I find it odd that they are putting one of the shelters at Washago. Why are they not using the VIA Rail Station? Is it insuficient? It would be nice if they could join forces and share a facility.

By eliminating the list of shelter locations, I assume they will be using the existing stations at:
  • Toronto (Union Station),
  • Langstaff (GO),
  • Gormley (GO),
  • North Bay (ONR),
  • Englehart (ONR), and
  • Cochrane (ONR).
That only leaves Timmins (Porcupine), where I assume they plan to build a station.
 
You are understanding what I am getting at. Somewhere like Temagami could be somewhere where you can live car free. Everything is within a short walk. Adding a taxi service that you can call to get you to/from the station would mean there is no need for a car. The other part of this is if an elderly person lives there, alone, why should then need to get a car to bring them to the station? To me, these gaps in service are the next steps that need to be dealt with once the train has arrived. They should have been dealt with by now, but if they don't get resoled, then it still is a substandard service.
Except that many people who call Temagami home don’t live in town. They are on the lake (water access only) or down remote rural roads. And that elderly person may not be safe walking to the grocery store when there is 3 ft of snow and it’s freezing out … should they also go snow machine free? That’s often the preferred winter mode of transportation. And “everything” still provides limited options. Many medical and even dental services require a trip to Temiskaming Shores, North Bay, Sudbury or even further. Groceries are limited, particularly in winter. It’s a summer town, lots closes up during the winter. I owned a business there at one time, back when the mines were booming and things were decent. A lot has changed. It’s not a 15 minute city by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Temagami: population 802. No year-round grocery store. It does have a health clinic and pharmacy as well as a hardware store. Public school only.
Washago: population 170. Small grocery store. No health facilities. No school. It does have a hardware store and a big honkin' liquor store.

I suppose if being really small makes something 'walkable' and you don't have a need for much of anything, I suppose they qualify.

Perhaps they, and other like them, are a great opportunity for some eager entrepreneur to start a taxi service. I'm sure there must be loads of other business outside of train time.
 
I find it odd that they are putting one of the shelters at Washago. Why are they not using the VIA Rail Station? Is it insuficient? It would be nice if they could join forces and share a facility.

By eliminating the list of shelter locations, I assume they will be using the existing stations at:
  • Toronto (Union Station),
  • Langstaff (GO),
  • Gormley (GO),
  • North Bay (ONR),
  • Englehart (ONR), and
  • Cochrane (ONR).
That only leaves Timmins (Porcupine), where I assume they plan to build a station.
Perhaps, but anything ONR provides will probably be a step up from the VIA shelter. It has electricity (or at least used to), I don't know if it heated.
 
What I would hope is that the issue is not overlooked in planning, but there may not be a solution available for a decade or two.

- Paul

This is my concern above all. It feels like it is overlooked.

By eliminating the list of shelter locations, I assume they will be using the existing stations at:
  • Toronto (Union Station),
  • Langstaff (GO),
  • Gormley (GO),
  • North Bay (ONR),
  • Englehart (ONR), and
  • Cochrane (ONR).

That would make sense. There is one in New Liskeard, but it is in rough shape and likely not worth trying to salvage.

That only leaves Timmins (Porcupine), where I assume they plan to build a station.

Has there been anything on it, or will it be the same as the rest?

Except that many people who call Temagami home don’t live in town. They are on the lake (water access only) or down remote rural roads. And that elderly person may not be safe walking to the grocery store when there is 3 ft of snow and it’s freezing out … should they also go snow machine free? That’s often the preferred winter mode of transportation. And “everything” still provides limited options. Many medical and even dental services require a trip to Temiskaming Shores, North Bay, Sudbury or even further. Groceries are limited, particularly in winter. It’s a summer town, lots closes up during the winter. I owned a business there at one time, back when the mines were booming and things were decent. A lot has changed. It’s not a 15 minute city by any stretch of the imagination.

I did not know that grocery store is closed in winter.

Temagami: population 802. No year-round grocery store. It does have a health clinic and pharmacy as well as a hardware store. Public school only.
Washago: population 170. Small grocery store. No health facilities. No school. It does have a hardware store and a big honkin' liquor store.

I suppose if being really small makes something 'walkable' and you don't have a need for much of anything, I suppose they qualify.

Perhaps they, and other like them, are a great opportunity for some eager entrepreneur to start a taxi service. I'm sure there must be loads of other business outside of train time.
Had the train not stopped, maybe there might be more.
 

Northern ON population grows by about 24,000 since 2021. That is about half the population of Timmins. One of the places that most are coming from is Southern ON. So, if we see that same growth continue, this bodes well for arguments to make the train service and associated infrastructure better.
 
Has there been anything on it, or will it be the same as the rest?
As far as I know it will be an actual station, not a shelter. That's why it's a separate contract. I guess we will have to wait for details.

Had the train not stopped, maybe there might be more.
And they would do what for a living? Temagami is a seasonal tourist town that serves summer residents on the lake and surrounding area plus travellers. The mine closed years ago.

I suspect the only reason both VIA and ONR stop in Washago is largely historic. I think east of Lake Simcoe would better serve the area but here we are.

Much of Northern Ontario is primarily a resource-based economy, so ebbs and flows with the 'harvesting' of natural resources, including availability and markets. The Clay Belts, being agricultural, are a little more stable. Most communities have a 'big daddy' employer and if/when it leaves, the town withers, since there is little other reason for its continued existence. Ask Iroquois Falls, Smooth Rock Falls or, more recently, Terrace Bay or Espanola. If there is no work, why be there? House values go into the toilet so it's hard to move. You might hang in but yours kids won't.

Beyond a main employer, another factor is the pull back of services, such as government offices and banks. It's not their job to support local employment, but when OPP, MNRF, etc. offices close (or become staffed from afar) or a bank shuts its branch down, you loose decent, year-round income. Once families , particularly young families go, demand for services such as grocery stores and schools drops. It becomes a vicious cycle. Better transportation options might help people from leaving but, in and of itself, won't be a reason for people coming to live.

I would suspect the majority of any population growth will primarily be in the cities, but don't know, and don't know how they have defined 'northern Ontario'. I understand there has been some growth in the Clay Belts as Mennonite families are cashing in down south and re-activation marginal land. Climate change is allowing crops that were previously not viable.
 
That only leaves Timmins (Porcupine), where I assume they plan to build a station.
Has there been anything on it, or will it be the same as the rest?

Its not in the list of cities that is getting one of the prefabbed shelters, so unless you think it will be the one and only stop without any type of structure, I would suspect it will get a station building. Not surprising given that it is the terminus and the largest city on the line north of North Bay.
 
The Porcupine station will be a separate contract and supposed to be awarded this winter with construction starting next spring. I don't recall even seeing any conceptual renders.
 
As far as I know it will be an actual station, not a shelter. That's why it's a separate contract. I guess we will have to wait for details.


And they would do what for a living? Temagami is a seasonal tourist town that serves summer residents on the lake and surrounding area plus travellers. The mine closed years ago.

I suspect the only reason both VIA and ONR stop in Washago is largely historic. I think east of Lake Simcoe would better serve the area but here we are.

Much of Northern Ontario is primarily a resource-based economy, so ebbs and flows with the 'harvesting' of natural resources, including availability and markets. The Clay Belts, being agricultural, are a little more stable. Most communities have a 'big daddy' employer and if/when it leaves, the town withers, since there is little other reason for its continued existence. Ask Iroquois Falls, Smooth Rock Falls or, more recently, Terrace Bay or Espanola. If there is no work, why be there? House values go into the toilet so it's hard to move. You might hang in but yours kids won't.

Beyond a main employer, another factor is the pull back of services, such as government offices and banks. It's not their job to support local employment, but when OPP, MNRF, etc. offices close (or become staffed from afar) or a bank shuts its branch down, you loose decent, year-round income. Once families , particularly young families go, demand for services such as grocery stores and schools drops. It becomes a vicious cycle. Better transportation options might help people from leaving but, in and of itself, won't be a reason for people coming to live.

I would suspect the majority of any population growth will primarily be in the cities, but don't know, and don't know how they have defined 'northern Ontario'. I understand there has been some growth in the Clay Belts as Mennonite families are cashing in down south and re-activation marginal land. Climate change is allowing crops that were previously not viable.

In those small towns, those taxis also would act as a bus for those who can afford it. It could be that this service is done by someone who does other things. It isn't just the big cities where people have multiple jobs. Also, now a days, there is Uber that may be there,
There is also this:

The Porcupine station will be a separate contract and supposed to be awarded this winter with construction starting next spring. I don't recall even seeing any conceptual renders.
Thank you
 
Media coverage of the March PIC re the Porcupine station indicated there would be a further information session around now. Stay tuned.


- Paul
 
I find it odd that they are putting one of the shelters at Washago. Why are they not using the VIA Rail Station?
I wonder if CN would prefer the revived Northlander station to be on the Newmarket Sub where Simcoe 169 turns north, after the switch west of the VIA station, so as not to hold up the Bala Sub mainline. Per OpenRailwayMap, it looks like one point the track switch was south of the VIA station, with an island platform. But Ontario might not be willing to pay CN to reinstate that layout, and accessibility has changed significantly since that would have been done.

The only other thing that occurs is that there isn't a ton of parking in the vicinity of the VIA station but there might have been other ways to resolve that other than create a separate halt.

1717612329618.png
1717612371172.png
 
In those small towns, those taxis also would act as a bus for those who can afford it. It could be that this service is done by someone who does other things. It isn't just the big cities where people have multiple jobs. Also, now a days, there is Uber that may be there,
There is also this:
Great. They can get up for the train (0115 and 0415).

I wonder if CN would prefer the revived Northlander station to be on the Newmarket Sub where Simcoe 169 turns north, after the switch west of the VIA station, so as not to hold up the Bala Sub mainline. Per OpenRailwayMap, it looks like one point the track switch was south of the VIA station, with an island platform. But Ontario might not be willing to pay CN to reinstate that layout, and accessibility has changed significantly since that would have been done.

The only other thing that occurs is that there isn't a ton of parking in the vicinity of the VIA station but there might have been other ways to resolve that other than create a separate halt.

View attachment 569912View attachment 569914
It is very narrow through there, particularly on the Newmarket side and, as you say, no road or parking. The stop would have to be darn near the Hwy 11 overpass if the train was to clear the switch. I suppose if ONR wanted to do that or move the switch back closer to where it used to be it would have been in their business case, which it isn't. BTW, the pin is pointing at the old original station which is used by MOW staff. The kiosk is the little dark thing next to it.
 

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