Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

Actually, according to The Sun, it will. I don't think the options in the Business Case to only operate on alternate days or only to operate part of the run in the off season had much traction.

Northlander will operate one southbound and one northbound service a day

There will be 16 two-minute stops in both directions.

torontosun.com

If we look at the previous Northlander service, some of the older stations (Washago, Bracebridge) were not used in latter years and, as Lucy mentions, even the ones that did have operating facilities weren't open at train time; they were mainly workplaces for their employees.

Without doing a really deep dive (not counting GTA stops) and using station times in the business case;

Washago - no transit
Gravenhurst - no transit
Bracebridge - transit; operates during s/b stop, not n/b
Huntsville - same as Bracebridge
South River - no transit
North Bay - transit; operates outside of train times
Temagami - no transit
Timiskaming Shores - transit; operates outside of train times
Englehart - no transit
Kirkland Lake - no transit
Matheson - no transit
Timmins - transit; appears to accommodate train times.

Whether the municipalities adjust their service, both timing and routing, I suppose would be up to them. Only two (North and Timmins) operate coach buses, so not much need for "bus bays".

I said bus bay as in singular as I know how little service would actually service this area.

I do agree it is up to the municipality to adjust their transit to fit the train if they so desire. However, if this was being laid out properly, those kinds of discussions would be happening before a tender for a station goes out. And of those places without transit, discussions could be happening to see whether it warrants having a singular route added.

The other thing is that there will still be the ONR bus running along it too. My expectations is that these stations would be served by the bus service as well.

Outside of the corridor, many of the VIA facilities are equally basic.

Or worse....

I guess the difference is that I want this to be a success where others just as soon want it to be an abysmal failure and be shut down. It reminds me of the GO London service. At least the Northlander has the schedule that Northerners wan.

 

[dowlingm]

There is nothing wrong with wanting this to be a success. But this is a simply massive sum of money - $150m for trainsets, plus Porcupline, plus whatever CN are getting south of North Bay, plus whatever VIA are getting to host at TMC, plus what is being given to ONR to weld jointed rail and re-lay the North Bay direct curve, etc etc etc., and that’s before on-train fuel/crew/consumables. Knocking on the door of 200m if not already the other side of it

The same trainsets deployed within 2 hours of Toronto would be full without blinking. It’s understood that loads on Northlander will likely be lighter, fine. But then the local communities can step up and adopt the station and direct activity to the station area. Next the criticism will be that Metrolinx didn’t provide Uber vouchers for Northlander passengers to be carried door to train door at provincial expense.

 

[micheal_can]

There is nothing wrong with wanting this to be a success. But this is a simply massive sum of money - $150m for trainsets, plus Porcupline, plus whatever CN are getting south of North Bay, plus whatever VIA are getting to host at TMC, plus what is being given to ONR to weld jointed rail and re-lay the North Bay direct curve, etc etc etc., and that’s before on-train fuel/crew/consumables. Knocking on the door of 200m if not already the other side of it

The same trainsets deployed within 2 hours of Toronto would be full without blinking. It’s understood that loads on Northlander will likely be lighter, fine. But then the local communities can step up and adopt the station and direct activity to the station area. Next the criticism will be that Metrolinx didn’t provide Uber vouchers for Northlander passengers to be carried door to train door at provincial expense.

When it was running with 1960s era GO coaches, for at least the last year, it was full. It was 2 coaches and a snack car. With it's return, I would not be surprised within the first year or 2, it would be full again. The question is whether we build once or end up building twice because of demand? For instance, if this was a GO station,would they build something and then in 10-20 years, build a new station?

 

[crs1026]

The problem I foresee is that the train stations may be in the wrong locations to be good transportation hubs for whatever local services already exist or are planned. Should communities uproot their existing transportation investments to include the train station? Should they reroute existing bus or other services to pass by the train station, when it sees only four trains a week? The train may be lucky to attract a couple taxi's. Otherwise, it may prove popular but the wait-in-car aspect is likely to prevail.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

The problem I foresee is that the train stations may be in the wrong locations to be good transportation hubs for whatever local services already exist or are planned. Should communities uproot their existing transportation investments to include the train station? Should they reroute existing bus or other services to pass by the train station, when it sees only four trains a week? The train may be lucky to attract a couple taxi's. Otherwise, it may prove popular but the wait-in-car aspect is likely to prevail.

- Paul

Most are close to the city centres. They do not need to become the main hubs, but having a local bus serve it would go a long way. For example, the 'new' North Bay station had not local transit to it for the longest time. The nearest was either the mall, or Seymore Street. Still s the case. Why does the bus not turn into the station? That one small fix could make the bus and train be better utilized. I understand the middle of the night stops the train will make may not be worth putting local transit in, but during regular scheduled time, especially if both ways are within that time, they should have it.

I know us northerners will use it even if we have to walk through 2 feet of snow in a blinding blizzard, but still, it could be better. Once it is up and running, the work to restore it has not ended, but only just begun. The next steps would be to make it better. To fix some of these shortcomings.

 

[Bordercollie]

Most are close to the city centres. They do not need to become the main hubs, but having a local bus serve it would go a long way. For example, the 'new' North Bay station had not local transit to it for the longest time. The nearest was either the mall, or Seymore Street. Still s the case. Why does the bus not turn into the station? That one small fix could make the bus and train be better utilized. I understand the middle of the night stops the train will make may not be worth putting local transit in, but during regular scheduled time, especially if both ways are within that time, they should have it.

I know us northerners will use it even if we have to walk through 2 feet of snow in a blinding blizzard, but still, it could be better. Once it is up and running, the work to restore it has not ended, but only just begun. The next steps would be to make it better. To fix some of these shortcomings.

The local transit piece will need to be re-evaluated by municipalities since the train is leaving arriving in North Bay around Midnight. As well as along the way.

At least you can get to Huntsville at like 3am...and do nothing until you can check in at your cottage 12 hours later. But it will get you to Toronto and back with a full day in the city, which beats driving. If only you could transfer to the GO train at Gormley and get off at Oriole to reach uptown. Rather than Gormley with no bus service on weekends.

 

[lenaitch]

I do agree it is up to the municipality to adjust their transit to fit the train if they so desire. However, if this was being laid out properly, those kinds of discussions would be happening before a tender for a station goes out. And of those places without transit, discussions could be happening to see whether it warrants having a singular route added.

For someone who wants this service up and running sooner than later, expecting multi-level discussions and agreements seems exactly not the way to go. If, for example, Granvenhurst refused or can't afford to run transit to a station, should the train not stop there, or are you advocating that the ONR/province fund local transit.

Even for communities that have a small transit system, expanding its routing or operating hours comes with significant operating and capital costs. Most of the small services are contracted.

If you are seriously proposing transit in places like Washago, South River, Temagami or Matheson, then you clearly haven't been there.

Most are close to the city centres.

Now I know you haven't been to many of them.

Maybe North Bay transit stopped going to the ONR terminal because it generated no business. You'd have to ask them. I can't image it would be that onerous, it's just off a current route and next to another (perhaps whoever owns the tunnel from the mall closed it).

 

[Bordercollie]

For someone who wants this service up and running sooner than later, expecting multi-level discussions and agreements seems exactly not the way to go. If, for example, Granvenhurst refused or can't afford to run transit to a station, should the train not stop there, or are you advocating that the ONR/province fund local transit.

Even for communities that have a small transit system, expanding its routing or operating hours comes with significant operating and capital costs. Most of the small services are contracted.

If you are seriously proposing transit in places like Washago, South River, Temagami or Matheson, then you clearly haven't been there.


Now I know you haven't been to many of them.

Maybe North Bay transit stopped going to the ONR terminal because it generated no business. You'd have to ask them. I can't image it would be that onerous, it's just off a current route and next to another (perhaps whoever owns the tunnel from the mall closed it).

Maybe a partnership with a local taxi company for a flat rate within city limits to the train station?

 

[micheal_can]

For someone who wants this service up and running sooner than later, expecting multi-level discussions and agreements seems exactly not the way to go. If, for example, Granvenhurst refused or can't afford to run transit to a station, should the train not stop there, or are you advocating that the ONR/province fund local transit.

There is a difference between having the conversation and not. A taxi service/dial a ride could be set up for the smaller areas. It could be set up as a flat rate if going to/from the stations. It could be set up as a fare zone system as well. There are lots of options. Doing this could be done concurrently. In fact, those conversations could have already been done by now. And, not having this should not mean no stopping.

Even for communities that have a small transit system, expanding its routing or operating hours comes with significant operating and capital costs. Most of the small services are contracted.

Contracts tend to come up for renewal. Some may even have a method of modifying them.

If you are seriously proposing transit in places like Washago, South River, Temagami or Matheson, then you clearly haven't been there.

Been there, done it, do you want the pictures and videos?

Now I know you haven't been to many of them.

Maybe North Bay transit stopped going to the ONR terminal because it generated no business. You'd have to ask them. I can't image it would be that onerous, it's just off a current route and next to another (perhaps whoever owns the tunnel from the mall closed it).

If they are using the areas that were the old stations, the following are located in the municipal centres:
Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntstville,South River, Temagami, New Liskard, Earlton, Englehart, Matheson and Cochrane.
Timmins is not, but they will adjust their transit to serve it.
North Bay is within the area served by their transit. Hopefully it can enter the station.

 

[PinkLucy]

“Municipal centre” in towns such as Temagami, Earlton, Englehart and Matheson does not equate to viable transit. I have spent a lot of time in each of those. Cochrane could maybe squeeze something out. New Liskeard has some basic transit. But really, this dead horse has been beaten long enough. Any Northerner I know is thrilled to have the train back and is not the least bit concerned about the minutiae that consumes your thoughts. They just want to once again take the train to Toronto. What is of far more concern than some form of transit shelter is convenience and price. Drive options are much improved so there’s some competition there in terms of travel time and convenience. Will it be affordable? Will it meet the needs of those using it for the travel purposes they have or will it just be a nod to nostalgia, which isn’t a long term solution, although I do have fond memories of Friday evenings in the dining car with a glass of wine, real cutlery and table linens, on my way north for the weekend.

 

[lenaitch]

I agree it has been beaten to death.

If municipalities or private companies want to service the station, they are free to do so.

Best as I can tell, Washago village is about 7 sqkm and has a population of about 170 (it's hard to tell accurately - it's unincorporated). Some City; some Centre.

 

[nfitz]

I'm perplexed by there being any discussions about local transit in relation to such an irregular minor service.

Even at Kingston, one of the most frequently served stations in the country, there was no local transit until relatively recently. You either parked and drove, got picked up, got a ride, or took a taxi ... which appeared in ample numbers.

I do not understand the obsession of so many of you on such an absurd triviality.

 

[crs1026]

I'm perplexed by there being any discussions about local transit in relation to such an irregular minor service.

Even at Kingston, one of the most frequently served stations in the country, there was no local transit until relatively recently. You either parked and drove, got picked up, got a ride, or took a taxi ... which appeared in ample numbers.

I do not understand the obsession of so many of you on such an absurd triviality.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.....

For the very reason you cite - ie transit connectivity at Kingston VIA was inexplicably bad for decades - attending to transit connectivity from the start is not wrong-headed..... where it is possible, and that's a big qualifier.

Having transit links in North Bay and Porcupine is possible and desirable.... clearly we aren't talking 20 minute all day service.... but some connectivity tied to train time is desirable. South River or Temagami, clearly not even that. But even there, it's a fair question to ask why the stop for the once or twice daily bus is on one side of town and the train service stops somewhere else. Maybe with time those gaps can be constructively reduced.

If we never ask the question, it will take longer to happen.... but I agree,let's be realistic when we do ask it.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Ontario awards contracts to restore northeastern passenger-rail service »

 

[nfitz]

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.....

For the very reason you cite - ie transit connectivity at Kingston VIA was inexplicably bad for decades - attending to transit connectivity from the start is not wrong-headed..... where it is possible, and that's a big qualifier.

Having transit links in North Bay and Porcupine is possible and desirable.... clearly we aren't talking 20 minute all day service.... but some connectivity tied to train time is desirable. South River or Temagami, clearly not even that. But even there, it's a fair question to ask why the stop for the once or twice daily bus is on one side of town and the train service stops somewhere else. Maybe with time those gaps can be constructively reduced.

If we never ask the question, it will take longer to happen.... but I agree,let's be realistic when we do ask it.

- Paul

You have to be kidding me.