Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[lenaitch]

One of the biggest thing is if someone can work from home,housing up here is cheap in comparison to other large cities. So, people are moving where they have a good internet connection. If companies had not called back workers to the office, we may have seen even higher growth. There are some new projects, so some people may be moving closer to lessen the distance on company transportation.

'Work from home' is great if you stare at a screen all day or work in an office; it isn't really a thing in resource extraction and the blue collar work that surrounds it.

Good internet and small towns/rural areas don't usually go together. We're about 10 kliks outside of a northern city and Elon's Starlink is our expensive friend. If you work in a remote mine and the company provides shuttle service by land or air, they don't care where you live in relation to the pick-up/drop-off point, so long as you get there. They're not picking up everybody at their front door.

 

[lenaitch]

Cobalt was a boom town. They even had a professional hockey team. But it’s a far cry from that today ,and the return of the Northlander won’t change what it has become. Unless Michael brings all his friends to ride the rails to hit up the Cobalt Legion on a Friday night.

And street cars and, I am told, its own stock exchange. Even if it does see a degree of resurgence with cobalt extraction (which was essentially waste in silver mining), mining is a lot less labour intensive now and we won't be seeing Walmarts and Home Depots springing up. If anything, it might pick up the freight traffic out of the area.

 

[micheal_can]

Akin to doesn’t put bums in seats on trains. Who are these people? Will they take the train? Both North Bay and Timmins have quick alternative such as flights. 2000 people in Timmins doesn’t equal 2000 tickets sold. It’s great that you want this to succeed, so do I — I used to love taking the Northlander — but things are different now including better, faster travel by private vehicle.

I know 2000new people does not equal 2000 tickets, or even 200 tickets. It may not even equal 2 tickets.

The interesting thing about the private vehicle mantra,have you driven in winter in Northern ON? Ever hear when 11 is shut down for 12 hours for an accident?

Cobalt was a boom town. They even had a professional hockey team. But it’s a far cry from that today ,and the return of the Northlander won’t change what it has become. Unless Michael brings all his friends to ride the rails to hit up the Cobalt Legion on a Friday night.

Sorry,my point was not that Cobalt needs that lavish station (which is being turned into apartments) but that at the time, even with the need of the day, many of these stations are overbuilt. The flip side is it seems the new stations are being under built.
All stations should answer the following questions with a yes:
Can I sit inside of something that is dry?
Can I sit inside of something that is warm in the winter?
Can I sit in something that is cool in winter?
Is there a place to purchase a ticket?
Can I use a washroom while I am waiting?
Does the other intercity transportation stop here?
Does local transit stop here?
Is there a local transportation option for times that public transit not service it?
Is it being built fiscally responsible?

The minute you say no is the minute it is not a good station.

'Work from home' is great if you stare at a screen all day or work in an office; it isn't really a thing in resource extraction and the blue collar work that surrounds it.

Good internet and small towns/rural areas don't usually go together. We're about 10 kliks outside of a northern city and Elon's Starlink is our expensive friend.

This is why the built up areas seem to have the highest growth.They have the capability.

If you work in a remote mine and the company provides shuttle service by land or air, they don't care where you live in relation to the pick-up/drop-off point, so long as you get there. They're not picking up everybody at their front door.

I know. I know people working in Gogama and Detour. They drive to a parking lot and take the company bus. The point is that people may be moving closer to that parking lot.

 

[micheal_can]

And street cars and, I am told, its own stock exchange. Even if it does see a degree of resurgence with cobalt extraction (which was essentially waste in silver mining), mining is a lot less labour intensive now and we won't be seeing Walmarts and Home Depots springing up. If anything, it might pick up the freight traffic out of the area.

The TSX is built on Cobalt's minerals.

Cobalt Ontario: Canada's silver town | Earth Sciences Museum

Cobalt was the birthplace of Canadian hard rock mining back to Mining in Ontario

uwaterloo.ca

 

[PinkLucy]

And street cars and, I am told, its own stock exchange. Even if it does see a degree of resurgence with cobalt extraction (which was essentially waste in silver mining), mining is a lot less labour intensive now and we won't be seeing Walmarts and Home Depots springing up. If anything, it might pick up the freight traffic out of the area.

It was quite the town 100 years ago! There is a Walmart in New Liskeard, a few km away, but no Home Depot and none on the horizon. Super interesting history, and it’s the home of Charlie Angus … his daughter now runs an adorable and surprisingly successful tea shop, but otherwise it has fallen into disrepair and has a serious drug problem. Sad, really.

 

[PinkLucy]

The interesting thing about the private vehicle mantra,have you driven in winter in Northern ON? Ever hear when 11 is shut down for 12 hours for an accident?

I lived there for 30 years. I have driven in all kinds of weather, including when the MTO was on strike. I have great driving skills, as do my kids, thanks to living in the North. I lived there when the Latchford bridge had to be repaired, and we had to detour via Quebec for months. I travelled those roads regularly for work. The twinning of Hwy 11 to North Bay was a huge game changer for travel between the NE and Toronto.

 

[lenaitch]

The interesting thing about the private vehicle mantra,have you driven in winter in Northern ON? Ever hear when 11 is shut down for 12 hours for an accident?

You seem to continually take the view that you are the only forum member who lives, has lived or travels in northern Ontario. You're not. Know your audience.

 

[Garuda]

You seem to continually take the view that you are the only forum member who lives, has lived or travels in northern Ontario. You're not. Know your audience.

Especially on a forum that's all about transportation. Of all the UT forums the users here are the most likely to travel and explore the hinterlands that is Northern Ontario.

 

[micheal_can]

I lived there for 30 years. I have driven in all kinds of weather, including when the MTO was on strike. I have great driving skills, as do my kids, thanks to living in the North. I lived there when the Latchford bridge had to be repaired, and we had to detour via Quebec for months. I travelled those roads regularly for work. The twinning of Hwy 11 to North Bay was a huge game changer for travel between the NE and Toronto.

Would be interesting to see if there was an uptick in the use of the Northlander then.

You seem to continually take the view that you are the only forum member who lives, has lived or travels in northern Ontario. You're not. Know your audience.

I have no idea where anyone is from or has lived. For some posts, I get the feeling many have never been north of Steeles.

 

[ShonTron]

And street cars and, I am told, its own stock exchange. Even if it does see a degree of resurgence with cobalt extraction (which was essentially waste in silver mining), mining is a lot less labour intensive now and we won't be seeing Walmarts and Home Depots springing up. If anything, it might pick up the freight traffic out of the area.

It was an interurban service, the Nipissing Central. There’s a bus today that still follows the route. Interestingly, the NC still exists as a paper company as the TN&O (now ONR) bought it to connect some of the mines, since the NC, unlike T&NO, had a federal charter, T&NO used it to open a line to Rouyn-Noranda.

 

[lenaitch]

I have no idea where anyone is from or has lived. For some posts, I get the feeling many have never been north of Steeles.

With talk of transit and other urban-like amenities in places like Washago, South River and Temagami, others might think the same.

 

[roger1818]

All stations should answer the following questions with a yes:
Can I sit inside of something that is dry?

Yes. The prefabbed shelters have a roof and walls

Can I sit inside of something that is warm in the winter?

Yes, the prefabbed shelters will have a heater.

Can I sit in something that is cool in winter?

AFAIK, the train will arrive in the middle of the night at all of the stations with prefabbed shelters, so heat will rarely be much of a problem.

Is there a place to purchase a ticket?

Possibly, though that could also be done on board, so not really necessary.

Can I use a washroom while I am waiting?

No, but you can say the same thing about most transit stations that see over 1000 times as many passengers as well. You might want to check out which O-Train stations have washrooms (spoiler, the vast majority don't).

Does the other intercity transportation stop here?

AFAIK, the only bus line that serves these cities is Ontario Northland, I would hope that they find a way to use a common station for both services. If a private operator chooses to stop elsewhere, there isn't much ONR can do about it.

Does local transit stop here?

Most of the stops with prefabbed shelters don't have transit, so to meet that requirement the best option would be to have the train not stop at those locations. For the ones that do, they tend not to run all night, long, so using transit to get to the station would mean a very, very long wait. Not sure many (if any) would be willing to wait that long for the train (or bus if arriving), and would rather spend that time at their origin/destination even finding alternate transport.

Is there a local transportation option for times that public transit not service it?

You just said that all stops must have public transportation available. Besides, how is this ONR's responsibility? Are you suggesting that ONR skip stops that don't have some other type of local transportation option?

Is it being built fiscally responsible?

Building stations that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars each fiscally responsible at stops that may not even see one passenger a day isn't fiscally responsible. Prefabbed shelters will be much cheaper and are the most fiscally responsible option for small towns that the train will only occasionally need to stop at.

The minute you say no is the minute it is not a good station.

OK, so which places do you think the Northlander shouldn't stop at so as to meet your requirements?

 

[micheal_can]

With talk of transit and other urban-like amenities in places like Washago, South River and Temagami, others might think the same.

So, you are telling me a car hired to pick people is only an urban thing? They exist in small towns as well. I have used them a time or 2. This is why I wonder if everyone is from downtown Toronto.It is as though they don't know things like this already exist, and could be used for when the train comes in.

 

[micheal_can]

AFAIK, the train will arrive in the middle of the night at all of the stations with prefabbed shelters, so heat will rarely be much of a problem.

You do know during the night in winter tends to be the coldest time of day.-30s is not uncommon.

Possibly, though that could also be done on board, so not really necessary.

That would be a good solution too.

No, but you can say the same thing about most transit stations that see over 1000 times as many passengers as well. You might want to check out which O-Train stations have washrooms (spoiler, the vast majority don't).

This is not a local transit station. This is an intercity transportation station. Does Ottawa's station not have washrooms?

AFAIK, the only bus line that serves these cities is Ontario Northland, I would hope that they find a way to use a common station for both services. If a private operator chooses to stop elsewhere, there isn't much ONR can do about it.

They are the only one along the entire route. So, yes, they should be using it too. Private operators have to be given permission to run routes. Part of that permission might be where to stop. Most of these stations are close to the highway.

Most of the stops with prefabbed shelters don't have transit, so to meet that requirement the best option would be to have the train not stop at those locations. For the ones that do, they tend not to run all night, long, so using transit to get to the station would mean a very, very long wait. Not sure many (if any) would be willing to wait that long for the train (or bus if arriving), and would rather spend that time at their origin/destination even finding alternate transport.

A taxi that is contracted to serve the train station at the times it is there is enough for the smallest areas. Just like how some cities have a "dial a ride", those stations could have the same thing. And just like how dial a ride is not free in the big cities that have it, this does not need to be free either. It could even be the regular market rate fare. Having it set up is the key. Most of these towns has some sort of taxi service. So, if anything, it would be just away of advertising for them. As far as the places with actual transit, they should have at least 1 bus route that goes to the station during the times that transit currently operates during. So,for example, if the train is operating during the times that North Bay Transit currently operates during, then it should be stopping at the station.

You just said that all stops must have public transportation available. Besides, how is this ONR's responsibility? Are you suggesting that ONR skip stops that don't have some other type of local transportation option?

Public transit is not the only public transportation. The Northlander is not public transit, but it is public transportation. I am careful with my wording so that I am not pigeon holing what should be there.

Building stations that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars each fiscally responsible at stops that may not even see one passenger a day isn't fiscally responsible. Prefabbed shelters will be much cheaper and are the most fiscally responsible option for small towns that the train will only occasionally need to stop at.

Prefab shelters are stations. It would be like arguing that benches should not be in there because they are prefab shelters. Or, there should not be lighting because they are prefab shelters.

OK, so which places do you think the Northlander shouldn't stop at so as to meet your requirements?

Everywhere would be able to meet the requirements if the government listened to locals and knew the areas they represent. And for the ridings they don't represent, they should be working with those that do represent there.

 

[roger1818]

You do know during the night in winter tends to be the coldest time of day.-30s is not uncommon.

Umm. Why would you need Air Conditioning when it is -30 out as it will be plenty cold outside, so it will rely on the included heater. Air Conditioning is only needed when it is very hot, and, as I said, too much heat will rarely be much of a problem in the middle of the night.

This is not a local transit station. This is an intercity transportation station. Does Ottawa's station not have washrooms?

Only the terminal O-Train stations have washrooms.

Private operators have to be given permission to run routes.

Not since deregulation of intercity buses in Ontario.

https://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/showAttachment.do?postingId=36970&attachmentId=48376

Part of that permission might be where to stop. Most of these stations are close to the highway.

No permission is required.

A taxi that is contracted to serve the train station at the times it is there is enough for the smallest areas. Just like how some cities have a "dial a ride", those stations could have the same thing. And just like how dial a ride is not free in the big cities that have it, this does not need to be free either. It could even be the regular market rate fare. Having it set up is the key. Most of these towns has some sort of taxi service. So, if anything, it would be just away of advertising for them. As far as the places with actual transit, they should have at least 1 bus route that goes to the station during the times that transit currently operates during. So,for example, if the train is operating during the times that North Bay Transit currently operates during, then it should be stopping at the station.

And how is that ONR's responsibility?

Public transit is not the only public transportation. The Northlander is not public transit, but it is public transportation. I am careful with my wording so that I am not pigeon holing what should be there.

Fair, but you still didn't answer how is this ONR's responsibility.

Prefab shelters are stations. It would be like arguing that benches should not be in there because they are prefab shelters. Or, there should not be lighting because they are prefab shelters.

Every stop will have either a bricks and mortar station or a prefabbed station. Here is a list of stops and what type of facility it will have:

Stop	Structure
Toronto (Union Station)	Existing GO Station
Langstaff	Existing GO Station
Gormley	Existing GO Station
Washago	Prefabbed Stelter
Gravenhurst	Prefabbed Stelter
Bracebridge	Prefabbed Stelter
Huntsville	Prefabbed Stelter
South River	Prefabbed Stelter
North Bay	Existing ONR Station
Temagami	Prefabbed Stelter
Temiskaming Shores	Prefabbed Stelter
Englehart	Existing ONR Station
Kirkland Lake	Prefabbed Stelter
Matheson	Prefabbed Stelter
Timmins	Existing ONR Station
Cochrane	New ONR Station

Everywhere would be able to meet the requirements if the government listened to locals and knew the areas they represent. And for the ridings they don't represent, they should be working with those that do represent there.

Have you heard of locals complaining about this? The only person I have heard complaining isn't a local to any of the stops.