OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[TOperson]

Instead of trying to change the subject, build the damn casino and it might help build some of that

Or we could skip the casino part, and just improve the infrastructure.

I know I know - the City might get $50M from the casino. But that's peanuts, like $50 each for the million or so households in Toronto.

 

[RC8]

Yeah...Interesting how the 3 most livable citys in the world ahead of Toronto all have downtown casinos

Right...

Only petty crime presents any difficulties for Vancouver, although this would be a typical shortfall of any such location. Violence is reportedly on an upward trend in the city, but the figures need to be put in context. A murder rate of 2.6 per 100,000 population recorded in 2009 is certainly above the Canadian average of 1.8.

Meanwhile in neighbouring Richmond...

Casino a crime magnet: RCMP

The opening of River Rock Casino in Richmond has led to a quadrupling of casino-related crime and allowed new organized crime groups to gain a foothold in the city, according to an internal RCMP report obtained by The Vancouver Sun.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=e0ba1ddf-e42e-4ffd-992a-8fbd09b26be9

Unsurprisingly after experiencing the effects of these small casinos, the city of Vancouver voted NO to a megacasino/expansion such as the one proposed for Toronto.

Vancouver says no dice to new downtown casino

In the end, council agreed that the negative impacts of increased gambling addiction and crime simply outweighed the potential benefits of more revenue and jobs.

Robertson said allowing the 74,000-square-metre entertainment complex "doesn't fit with Vancouver's global brand as the world's most livable city, as the green capital of the world, as a hotbed for innovation in clean and digital technology, in resource management.

"I personally do not believe the expansion of gambling is the right direction for Vancouver," he said to cheers from those in the gallery

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/04/19/bc-vancouver-casino-expansion.html

In Melbourne on the other hand...

Melbourne Crown Casino Prime Target for Thieves

Police records reveal an alarming tale of thefts and other crimes at the Crown Casino in Melbourne. In a six month span, both property and cash worth around $400,000 were reportedly stolen from customers at the Crown Casino. From January to June of this year alone, police officers responded to 167 complaints from the Crown.

Many of these alleged crimes - 54 - involved attempted or actual thefts from motor vehicles and 44 of these remain unsolved. The actual number of incidents could be higher because system limitations and the way reports are recorded in the police database restrict the ways in which the information can be extracted.

http://www.online-casino-friend.com...rne-crown-casino-prime-target-for-thieves.asp

Toronto can and would survive a casino easily, but the fact is we can do better without one, and those telling you otherwise are constantly changing the subject to suit their agenda. Every planner and every politician who prioritises the well-being of citizens has come out opposing this development.

I'm not against gambling, but it's pretty obvious to me that we can better fulfil our potential as a city by building something here that enhances the life of the 30,000 residents of this neighbourhood and beyond.

 

[TOperson]

I agree--once we kill this casino idea, the city can start taking back large numbers of liquor licenses in the downtown core to promote temperance "dry areas", reactivate a no Sunday shopping policy and generally improve the misguided lives of all Torontonians. New city slogan perhaps, "Visit Toronto. Come for the moral superiority, stay for the relentless condescension."

Are we playing logical fallacy bingo AGAIN?

 

[Automation Gallery]

Or we could skip the casino part, and just improve the infrastructure.

I know I know - the City might get $50M from the casino. But that's peanuts, like $50 each for the million or so households in Toronto.

+

Sorry, $50 becomes $100 or $150 or maybe even $200, and i not willing to pay that if its there for the take

 

[Automation Gallery]

I agree--once we kill this casino idea, the city can start taking back large numbers of liquor licenses in the downtown core to promote temperance "dry areas", reactivate a no Sunday shopping policy and generally improve the misguided lives of all Torontonians. New city slogan perhaps, "Visit Toronto. Come for the moral superiority, stay for the relentless condescension."

That would be.....RC8 dream vision of Toronto

 

[jaycola]

I was being somewhat facetious when I said the city could lose tourists due to a loss of it's moral/clean image. That is not something I ascribe to, I like to see a little of the dirty world in my travel to be honest. I included that for the moralists who decry the rot and civil destruction a Casino and it's associated patrons will foist upon our fair city.

The opening of River Rock Casino in Richmond has led to a quadrupling of casino-related crime and allowed new organized crime groups to gain a foothold in the city, according to an internal RCMP report obtained by The Vancouver Sun.

So, let me get this straight. A city without a casino saw a quadrupling of "Casino related crime" after a casino was opened?
That's like saying a street saw an increase in parking violations after the introduction of parking regulations. Why is that even a statistic?
I'll grant you this, a city without a casino will have less casino related crime than a city with a casino.

As to the Melbourne example.
First lets get something straight(source)

Crown Melbourne is now the largest and most successful tourist venue in Australia, attracting 17 million visitors each year. In a Euromonitor International report last year, Crown Melbourne was ranked the 17th top tourist attraction around the world.

State’s largest single-site, private sector employer with over 6,500 employees, over 3,300 contractors and
over $350 Million annual payroll

Many of these alleged crimes - 54 - involved attempted or actual thefts from motor vehicles and 44 of these remain unsolved.

The best you could find is 167 police calls and 54 attempted or actual thefts from motor vehicles? That's like one call a day. My daughter's high school probably gets half that number of police calls. Of the motor vehicle thefts, 20% of which were solved...I doubt in Toronto the police solved 5% of the thefts from motor vehicles.

My wife's car got broken into at Yorkdale. The scumbags took her gymbag and maternity workout wear. That's stuff is expensive. The police told us to come in and file a report. I wonder how many attempted or actual thefts from motor vehicles occur at Yorkdale in a single day?

but it's pretty obvious to me that we can better fulfil our potential as a city by building something here that enhances the life of the 30,000 residents of this neighbourhood and beyond.

Assuming the casino would be on the scale of that in Melbourne, what development scheme could you possibly devise that could, in your wildest speculation, create a fraction of the jobs a casino could provide?

You seem to have a vision of the city that has no need for employment for our citizens nor revenue for the city since you have stated such . Do you know what enhances the lives of Torontonians, more jobs and less taxes.

 

[isaidso]

Given that our lower score was based on 'infrastructure', how 'bout we concentrate on what to do with transit and the Gardiner, and quit trying to build a casino?

That's truly a bizarre conclusion to reach. Our infrastructure hasn't kept pace with the growth of our city so we should stop developing? It would follow that we should put a moratorium on all new condo/office construction in our city as well. You can bet your bottom dollar that these same developers who are opposed to the downtown casino would start doing an about face if it came to that.

Surely the obvious answer is to build more infrastructure, not stop growing as a city.

 

[isaidso]

It's the height of hypocrisy for anyone to argue that a casino is somehow bringing gambling to Toronto when our government has a multi billion dollar gambling division called OLG.

The onus isn't on the new casino project to prove that the negative impacts are minimal, its on everyone else to prove that Toronto should regress back to its Presbyterian morality of 1960 ..... and that they have a right to dictate to the rest of society their strict moral code.

Don't like alcohol? Don't go to a bar. Don't like gambling? Don't go to a casino. It's absurd that we have a group of people in this day and age who think they still have the right to determine whether we get to do these things.

This isn't UTAH or TEXAS.

 

[RC8]

You seem to have a vision of the city that has no need for employment for our citizens nor revenue for the city since you have stated such . Do you know what enhances the lives of Torontonians, more jobs and less taxes.

Yes, 'cause as things stand without a casino we are all unemployed and taxed to death. Stop it with the ideologically motivated fear mongering already, it's beyond pathetic under these circumstances. Downtown Toronto has more jobs than anywhere else in Canada, and is creating more and more without the need for a casino. We are one of the most financially stable and most liveable cities in the world, and we didn't get there through your 'more jobs and less taxes' formula, but by creating spaces and institutions where the creativity of artists, researchers, and especially entrepreneurs could flourish.

To come and tell the city that the 'answer' to our mythical financial shortcomings lies in a megacasino is to be delusional at best and offensively ignorant at worse.

We live in a city with a 14 Billion dollar operating budget, and we are going to impose a megacasino where residents don't want it and against the advice of every planner in town for 50 million a year? The vehicle registration tax used to get us 64 million a year, for reference.

If a megacasino provides so much bonanza and employment then build the thing in Etobicoke, which has been leaking jobs for the past 10 years. Oh it wouldn't work there? Then we might want to fix that former municipality and turn it into a desirable place to visit and invest in instead of piggybacking on the success of downtown Toronto (which is mostly down to good planning).

The situation demands we are fiscally and socially responsible, and building a downtown casino to subsidise swaths of the city that are repelling investment is neither.

 

[000]

Amazing post RC8, thank you. Who else knew that very small vehicle registration tax brought the city more revenue than this multi-billion dollar neighbourhood disrupting casino? We have got to be more creative.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Who gets to decide where this Casino gets built? Does Paul Godfrey have a say in the final decision? If so it seems he has a huge conflict of interest as the CEO of Rio-Can which has publicly announced it's opposition to a downtown Casino (I suspect the convention centre proposal is their greatest worry).

The same squabble that happened here in Toronto in the 1980s between banks is happening today with developers vs developers...
Great article............That time Toronto banks went to war over Scotia Plaza
http://www.blogto.com/city/2013/02/that_time_toronto_banks_went_to_war_over_scotia_plaza/

 

[jaycola]

Stop it with the ideologically motivated fear mongering already

You are accusing me of fear mongering? I have only talked about potential benefits of the project in terms of increased tax revenue, jobs and the convention/tourism business. Which fears was I playing on?

Do you know the meaning of that phrase?

Fear mongering (or scaremongering or scare tactics) is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form of a vicious circle

RC8, I'd like to see an example of my "fear mongering".

Based upon this definition, I think it is you that is in fact "fear mongering"...
Some examples from just the past 5 pages.

...I was simply pointing out that we probably wouldn't see much crime if we had our casino in an isolated location like Montreal's.
...My personal concern is more with violent assaults and disturbances.
...I worry that putting the casino where Oxford wants it (by far one of the safest parts of downtown) would lead to an increase in robberies, shootings, violent altercations
...a greater percentage of residential units immediately adjacent to the casino would be taken over by drug-related or other forms of organised crime.
...Toronto doesn't need the revenue and the risks are greater than any benefits.
...What I take from them is that there's an awful lot that can go wrong, and very little that can improve.
...It seems like the last thing on the proponents' minds is the well-being of Toronto's residents.
...The OLG are just throwing a bone to the municipality so that they can suck money out of downtown Toronto regardless of any negative consequences.
...None of the proponents of this casino care if surrounding neighbourhoods suffer due to increased crime.
...They don't care if they make surrounding businesses go bankrupt, and they don't care if they scare business away from Toronto's downtown.

Your posts are the definition of fear mongering. I would suggest you don't make personal accusations such as that if you can't back them up.
I have been refuting your posts because they are not based on any verifiable facts or backed up by any studies but on your concerns and worries.

With or without this project the city will continue to create new spaces where, to quote your words, "the creativity of artists, researchers, and especially entrepreneurs could flourish". Why would the inclusion of a single casino within the variety of offerings in Downtown Toronto change that? It's not like this single project will suck the life out of our urban core (as some seem are want to insist).

As to revenue, that $50 Million number is just a "royalty fee" the city would get from the casino. $350 million in wages, as seen in the Melbourne is a direct benefit to the city. Property tax revenue is another bonus. Add to that the huge potential influx of thousands of new tourists and their input to the local economy for hotels, restaurants, theatres and spin off revenues could be in the billions.

To come and tell the city that the 'answer' to our mythical financial shortcomings lies in a megacasino is to be delusional at best and offensively ignorant at worse.

Our financial shortcomings are not nearly mythical and I don't remember a single post in this thread where someone claimed that a casino is the "answer".
Those proponents such as myself are simply willing to take the potential risks along with the potential benefits. It's really quite simple.

From the Melbourne example again...Source

Casinos make a significant export contribution to the Australian economy.
– over 1 million international tourists made 2.4 million visits to Australian
casinos in 2007-08. International tourists who visited casinos spent a total
of $4.9 billion during their time in Australia — an average of $4940 per
visitor, compared to $2630 by international visitors not visiting casinos

huh...tourists who visit casinos spend more money than those who don't. Maybe we should try to attract more tourists like that?

 

[Automation Gallery]

I'm not against gambling, but it's pretty obvious to me that we can better fulfil our potential as a city by building something here that enhances the life of the 30,000 residents of this neighbourhood and beyond.

You keep up bringing up these figures (who really knows)...30,000, 25,000, 22,000 residents, but my bet is that 70% of these people couldnt care less of building a downtown casino, if the revenues went into improving city infrastructure (parks, roads, rapid transit, etc.etc. etc.)

 

[RC8]

You keep up bringing up these figures (who really knows)...30,000, 25,000, 22,000 residents, but my bet is that 70% of these people couldnt care less of building a downtown casino, if the revenues went into improving city infrastructure (parks, roads, rapid transit, etc.etc. etc.)

No, you are just making things up once again to fit your agenda - as usual. They overwhelmingly oppose it (100-1 at Cityplace resident's association), and that's why Jaycola's and your arguments are fear mongering.

Area residents, planners, and local politicians unanimously agree that the negative effects of a casino outweigh potential benefits. Most importantly, local residents don't care for a gambling facility close to home. That should be the end of any 'debate'.

But then the pro-casino crowd come and warn that getting in the way of a casino is getting in the way of jobs and revenue for a city that oh so badly needs them. Being anti-casino equates being anti-employment and anti-revenue. I find statements like this one offensive:

You seem to have a vision of the city that has no need for employment for our citizens nor revenue for the city since you have stated such . Do you know what enhances the lives of Torontonians, more jobs and less taxes.

It shows a complete and total disregard for intelligent decision making and the issue at hand. It's ideological drivel that has no place on these boards. Downtown Toronto is the geographical area in Canada that needs a casino the least in order to grow and improve. The poster is literally making things up to de-legitimise my opinion (since I said nothing of the sort at any point) - and hinting that if my advice is taken seriously we will suffer chronic unemployment and economic stagnation.

The people who want a casino want it so they can subsidise parts of the city and parts of the province that are dysfunctional and not competitive enough. This is a fact. Downtown Toronto does not need a casino and this is obvious to absolutely everyone who is not wilfully ignorant. This is an attempt at third-world socialism, it's an insult to all those who have worked so hard to build this culturally and financially dynamic city.

The problem is not that people are not allowed to gamble, I like gambling. The problem is that the OLG and Sands et al. want to use gambling to fix a provincial deficit and make millions for a private corporation in the process... and that is objectively terrible planning.

It's really simple for me. If people want a casino in their neighbourhood, then let them have one! But if they don't, and they don't need one, don't force it on them. If they don't care for gambling and place importance instead on lowering crime levels and traffic then we need to respect that. In this case, the local community blatantly doesn't need or want a casino, so there's no basis to approve one.

 

[TOareaFan]

Amazing post RC8, thank you. Who else knew that very small vehicle registration tax brought the city more revenue than this multi-billion dollar neighbourhood disrupting casino? We have got to be more creative.

I would suggest that the only people who knew that are the people who know the casinos will net the city $50 million/year. I, for one, thought the financial model is still to be established.