OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[DavidJamesTO]

Children being left in cars at casinos is a definite concern. Melbourne is not an isolated incident: http://www.casinowatch.org/children_gambling/children_abandoned_by_parents.html
Pets being left in cars is also a problem.
When I was doing some work with the gambling addictions program, I was told that the parking lots are regularly patrolled in Ontario to check cars for children and pets.

People hardly need a casino to do that. They do it at malls and big box stores all the time. Anywhere there's parking you'll find parents and pet owners who think "I'm only going in for a few minutes."

 

[Filip]

I lived in Australia for a while. There were stories of parents leaving their kids in parked cars for hours while they gambled at the Melbourne casino. I think one kid might have died?

So, the Melbourne casino may have been a success in economic terms (limited ones at that), but there are other measures of success or failure.

People do that all the time here - at malls. Should we ban the development of malls because of some people with limited intellectual abilities?

These are all straw man arguments. I'm pro casino because I like gambling... But hey, it's 20 dollars at a time and once every few months! My life hasn't been destroyed!! Hurrah!

 

[PinkLucy]

They don't patrol mall parking lots looking for children/pets that are left ... that in itself tells you something.

 

[Filip]

They don't patrol mall parking lots looking for children/pets that are left ... that in itself tells you something.

They should start.. You can't go one hot day without reading a horror story in The Star about somebody leaving their pet, kids or GRANDPARENT in a swealtering car.

 

[jaycola]

From the first page of my google search...
"Mugshot: Dad leaves kids home alone to buy beer? | HLNtv.com"
"Bingeing mother left baby alone for a week"
"Police: Mother leaves 3-year-old home alone to go on job interview"
"mom leaves kids home alone with no heat to go charge cell phone"
"Florida mom leaves three kids, 5, 3 and 2, home alone while she shopped"

Stories of stupid, irresponsible parents putting children at risk exist for all sorts of reasons. Gambling doesn't make these people do reckless things and the absence of it won't make them smarter. They are reckless people. Casino Security watching the parking lot closely is a good idea for all sorts of reasons and not having a casino downtown won't make keeping these children safe any easier.

 

[TOperson]

From the first page of my google search...
"Mugshot: Dad leaves kids home alone to buy beer? | HLNtv.com"
"Bingeing mother left baby alone for a week"
"Police: Mother leaves 3-year-old home alone to go on job interview"
"mom leaves kids home alone with no heat to go charge cell phone"
"Florida mom leaves three kids, 5, 3 and 2, home alone while she shopped"

Stories of stupid, irresponsible parents putting children at risk exist for all sorts of reasons. Gambling doesn't make these people do reckless things and the absence of it won't make them smarter. They are reckless people. Casino Security watching the parking lot closely is a good idea for all sorts of reasons and not having a casino downtown won't make keeping these children safe any easier.

Except that casinos are specifically designed to keep you inside for long periods, losing track of time, etc. The games themselves also have this effect, especially the slot machines.

Years ago, when Nova Scotia started to allow gambling and stories of people gambling for hours & hours started to circulate, a CBC comedy show (I think it was "This Hour Has 22 Minutes") did a fake commercial for adult diapers, specially designed for the casino visitor, so that NOTHING would interrupt their playing. That's the kind of distraction at work in a casino. It's extreme. Plenty of otherwise responsible adults have succumbed to it.

 

[PinkLucy]

And at malls, etc. people say "I just ran in for a minute". That doesn't happen at casinos. Children are deliberately left at casinos.

Keeping you there is definitely part of casino life. That's also why the argument that local businesses will benefit isn't a good one. Casinos don't want you to go to the restaurant or the theatre down the street; they want you to stay and use their facilities.

 

[Filip]

Except that casinos are specifically designed to keep you inside for long periods, losing track of time, etc. The games themselves also have this effect, especially the slot machines.

Years ago, when Nova Scotia started to allow gambling and stories of people gambling for hours & hours started to circulate, a CBC comedy show (I think it was "This Hour Has 22 Minutes") did a fake commercial for adult diapers, specially designed for the casino visitor, so that NOTHING would interrupt their playing. That's the kind of distraction at work in a casino. It's extreme. Plenty of otherwise responsible adults have succumbed to it.

They're doing a poor job keeping people in.. When I go with a large group of friends, we're in and out as soon as we run out of our money budgeted for the casino.

Now where I do lose track of time is the Lego store.. They should ban those.. I might leave my child unattended.

 

[jaycola]

Published today, this article provided a balanced assessment of the situation at hand for Toronto. Make your own conclusions from reading it but lets avoid the histrionics.

bbc.com/travel

Travelwise | 11 January 2013
The high-low split of gambling cities

Propositions to legalise or expand commercial gambling are never without controversy, yet they never stop surfacing.

This month in the Bahamas, residents will vote on a referendum to expand legalised gambling – a proposal which faces fervent opposition from local church groups. In the US, politicians in Kentucky have been trying to legalize casino gambling since 2008, so far to no avail. Also in the US, efforts to expand casino gambling in Maryland recently concluded with voters approving the construction of a billion-dollar casino at the National Harbor, a 350-acre waterfront development near Washington DC.

The argument for commercial gambling says that it stimulates the economy by promoting tourism, increasing tax revenue and creating jobs. The argument against says that commercial gaming harms both the economy and people by increasing rates of bankruptcy, addiction, violent crime, theft and substance abuse, in addition to taking business away from surrounding attractions. Both sides are right. But the gaming industry’s economic impacts don’t look the same everywhere in the world.

Macau was just named the world’s second fastest growing economy, a title owed almost entirely to its casinos. This Special Administrative Region of China rakes in more than five times the amount of gambling revenue that Las Vegas does each year; in 2012 alone, its casino revenue rose 13.5% to 303 billion Macau patacas. Macau’s casino boom has created a lot of jobs, too. About 45,000 casino-related jobs have opened up in the last seven years, causing the unemployment rate to drop to a mere 2%, according to the Associated Press (AP). These jobs don’t require a high level of education, but they do pay well, offering salaries often 30% to 40% higher than comparable non-casino jobs in Macau, the AP reports. That’s not necessarily the case everywhere though; in the US, for instance, gaming dealers can make as little as minimum wage. (The Boston Globe provides this glimpse into the kinds of jobs US casinos create and their associated salaries.)

The situation in Macau has a lot to do with geography. It is the only place in China where casino gambling is legal, so the vast majority of gamblers are tourists from mainland China. If casino gambling was to become legal elsewhere in the country, there’s a strong chance that Macau’s economic growth could start to slow.

This is what happened to New Jersey’s gambling destination, Atlantic City. Since 2006, surrounding areas in Pennsylvania, Delaware, West Virginia, New York and Maryland have built casinos; and each year since 2006, Atlantic City’s gambling revenue has steadily dropped, reports the Atlantic magazine.

Even in Macau, there have been social costs. According to the AP, the country’s income gap has grown, property prices have risen and there’s been an increase in problem gambling. One study on gambling addiction finds that living within 80km of a casino makes someone twice as likely to become a problem gambler. In tiny Macau (with a land area of just 29sqkm), all residents live within a short driving distance from the casinos.

The potential ill-effects of commercial gambling on a community’s own citizens cannot be ignored. It was for this reason that in Monaco, home to the infamous Monte Carlo Casino, gambling has always been illegal for its own residents. When Princess Caroline developed Monte Carlo Casino in the mid-1800s, she was adamant that Monegasques should not be allowed inside, and that gambling revenue should come only from foreigners. In exchange, citizens of Monaco do not have to pay income taxes.

Monaco’s successes, with its citizens enjoying a high standard of living, can also be contributed to the fact that the city does not rely solely on its casinos for economic development. Its efforts to be a well-rounded tourism destination have resulted in 11% of its revenue coming from tourism, compared to just 4% coming from gambling. Finance and banking account for a large chunk of its economy as well.

Another tourism-driven economy – that of the Bahamas – is currently dealing with the question of whether its own citizens should be allowed to gamble. The referendum on 28 January concerns exactly that. Currently Bahamians are banned from gambling inside the beach resort casinos, meant for tourists only. However, underground gaming locales, called “web shops”, have emerged where locals can place illegal bets on US lotteries that are broadcast on television. This month, citizens will decide whether these web shops should be made legal and whether they would support the creation of a national lottery. They would still not be allowed to gamble in the casinos aimed at tourists.

Plenty of economists argue that casinos do not only create social woes, but economic burdens as well. According to a paper from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, multiple studies in the US have found that casino gambling costs taxpayers three times the amount that it generates in state taxes – because it tends to cause an increase in social welfare costs, regulatory costs, criminal justice costs and infrastructure costs.

Multiple studies also show that certain forms of gambling amount to a “regressive tax” on the poor. Numbers lotteries in particular (the same ones in question in the Bahamas right now) have been shown to take money away from the people who can afford it the least. A strong case can also be made for slots machines in casinos creating a regressive tax, since these operate much like lotteries, producing the worst odds for players and the best odds for the house. For this reason, some governments tax slots games at a higher rate than other casino activities, such as table games.

University of Illinois business professor John Warren Kindt argued that although casinos initially create jobs, in the long-term, legalised gambling can cause job loss as well. For one thing, gambling addiction has been linked to job loss, with problem gamblers twice as likely to lose their jobs as nongamblers. For another, casinos often take profits away from surrounding businesses. Casinos work to keep customers inside their establishments (and out of nearby businesses) by providing them with drinks, food, shopping and accommodation, and by implementing strategic interior design techniques. Local businesses also have a hard time competing, writes Kindt, because casinos have addiction on their side. If, as a result, surrounding businesses are forced to close, non-casino jobs are lost.

At the end of the day, the net impact of legalised gambling on a community is difficult to assess. What seems clear, though, is that making casinos a silver bullet for the economy is a risky bet. If gaming inhabits a space within a diversified tourism industry and within a diversified economy, though, communities may benefit – if they can successfully measure and manage gambling’s social and economic costs.

 

[TOperson]

They're doing a poor job keeping people in.. When I go with a large group of friends, we're in and out as soon as we run out of our money budgeted for the casino.

Now where I do lose track of time is the Lego store.. They should ban those.. I might leave my child unattended.

That's nice, but that's just your personal experience. There is a ton of research showing that casinos DO have the intended effect on many people.

 

[RC8]

RC8. Intelligent decision making actually comes through debate, not shutting down divergent opinions. You do not get to choose which are "the issue at hand" and my posts have been solely about the potential benefits and complications for Toronto of a resort casino.

Right...

You seem to have a vision of the city that has no need for employment for our citizens nor revenue for the city since you have stated such . Do you know what enhances the lives of Torontonians, more jobs and less taxes.

As for Melbourne...

A DISTURBING picture of crime involving robbery, sexual assault and drug use at Melbourne's casino precinct can be revealed by The Sunday Age, with figures showing that a serious incident is committed every six hours.

A secret report into crime at Crown Casino and the surrounding Southbank area shows that a staggering 4239 crimes were reported over a three-year period.

The figures show there were four rapes, 19 other sex offences, 75 drug-related incidents, 22 robberies and 417 assaults.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/thousands-of-crimes-at-crown-20091207-kfcb.html

For you it's a success story, for me it's a bitter-sweet tale.

In recent years, the social costs associated with gambling, including the relationship between problem gambling and crime, have received growing attention. It has been estimated that problem gamblers represent 2.1 per cent of the Australian adult population (one per cent with severe problems; 1.1 per cent with moderate problems). Although the number of problem gamblers appears to be small, they contribute to approximately one-third of total expenditure on gambling in Australia. In addition, their annual losses average $12,220, compared with less than $650 for other gamblers (Productivity Commission 1999, pp. 19, 21). According to the Australian Crime Commission (2003), gambling-related fraud and theft has increased considerably in recent times. For example, in South Australia, since poker machines were introduced in that state in 1994, the number of people seeking counselling following the commission of a gambling-related crime has risen from one every two weeks to one a day. Most people who have sought help have defrauded either their employer or a family member.

Figure 1 : Primary motivation of convicted offenders (in Australia)

Source: Australian Institute of Criminology and PricewaterhouseCoopers (2003).

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current series/tandi/241-260/tandi256/view paper.html

Back in the 1990s the Melbourne casino was placed on an abandoned strip where no one lived, similar to what the lower West Don Lands looked like a couple of years back. This means that no neighbourhoods were destroyed in the making. Today, after all these years, the area surrounding the casino is for the most part a car-oriented dead zone.

Maybe you are happy taking hand-outs from a casino, but I believe that municipalities (and former municipalities in the case of Toronto) need to be self-sufficient and live within their means.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Today, after all these years, the area surrounding the casino is for the most part a car-oriented dead zone.

Funny you brought that up...... are you absolutely sure on that

 

[RC8]

Funny you brought that up...... are you absolutely sure on that

Yes, but as I said it was dead before, too. There's a really neat waterfront promenade and the revitalisation of the area East of the casino (which predates it) is brilliant, but go one block west and you are in a horrible place. It doesn't help it's surrounded by highways. I'm not blaming the casino for this, but pointing out that the neighbourhood it's in is not equivalent to Front and Blue Jays Way, where the mode share for car trips is under 15%.

 

[canmark]

Toronto Sun: Toronto health board votes unanimously to oppose casino

Toronto’s health board said no dice to a casino Monday.

Board members voted unanimously to oppose a Toronto casino after receiving a report from public health officials that argues a gambling complex would cause more harm than good.

Health board chairman Joe Mihevc said Monday’s vote will act as a cornerstone of a successful “no” vote on a Hogtown casino at city council later this year.

“When a major institution like the board of health and a very important civil servant like the medical officer of health says that this is not in the broad public interest — it is not a public good — I think councillors will take a very serious second look at voting in a positive way for (a casino),” Mihevc said.

Councillor Gord Perks insisted the vote sends a message to city council that a casino would be bad for Torontonians.

“It looks like the only reason anybody would support a casino is to bring in money and quite frankly there are ways to bring in money that don’t make people sicker and that’s what we should be doing at the City of Toronto,” Perks said.

 

[RC8]

Comments on the Sun are quite something. I can picture foam coming out of the commenters' mouths.

Just wondering. Do they have an inordinate health problem in Las Vegas? Let the people decide!! This is a democracy after all. The board of health and the Cheif Pooba shold waste taxpayers money and do a study to find out how stupid they are.

Meanwhile in Las Vegas...

A study by sociologist Matt Wray and his colleagues found that between 1979 and 2004, the odds of suicide among Vegas residents were about 50% greater than in other large metropolitan areas.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/13/nation/la-na-vegas-suicide-20120413