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OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

Torontovibe said:
You have CityPlace, the Entertainment District condos and Southcore, all surrounding that site. Where else in the world do you have anything like that? We are headed into uncharted waters, as far as I can see.
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Uhh, sounds like you are trying put the fear of God to anyone that has any doubts of supporting a downtown Casino...lol:D
 
nfitz said:
A deserted island with it's own subway station ...

It's not that far a walk to Jean-Drapeau.

Ferry? That's new. Where does it run to?
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Technically Jean-Drapeau is in a different island. The ferry apparently takes you to Ille Ste. Helene too, and it is according to google faster than taking the subway and walking.

The Hearn with a subway station would still be pretty f*cking isolated in my opinion, and so is Montreal's casino. It's a very inappropriate example to draw conclusions on crime, etc.
 
RC8 said:
The Hearn with a subway station would still be pretty f*cking isolated in my opinion, and so is Montreal's casino. It's a very inappropriate example to draw conclusions on crime, etc.
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I hadn't realised organized crime (and that's the concern isn't it?) was so adverse to driving. Maybe that's why the opening to Soprano's shows Tony struggling on the PATH and bus ...
 
nfitz said:
I hadn't realised organized crime (and that's the concern isn't it?) was so adverse to driving. Maybe that's why the opening to Soprano's shows Tony struggling on the PATH and bus ...
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If "crime" can drive, I guess this means the effect on crime in Toronto would be the same whether the casino is Downtown, at the Ex, at Woodbine, or in Markham, Vaughan, Mississauga or elsewhere in the GTA. At least we can now take crime of the table as a debating point.
 
nfitz said:
I hadn't realised organized crime (and that's the concern isn't it?) was so adverse to driving. Maybe that's why the opening to Soprano's shows Tony struggling on the PATH and bus ...
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My personal concern is more with violent assaults and disturbances, not organised crime per se. It's a given that organised crime would be an issue (or not) regardless of whether this is right downtown or further away.

I worry that putting the casino where Oxford wants it (by far one of the safest parts of downtown) would lead to an increase in robberies, shootings, violent altercations, etc. And that a greater percentage of residential units immediately adjacent to the casino would be taken over by drug-related or other forms of organised crime.

Since the area is scheduled to get a school soon and is successfully attracting families to the area, I don't think gambling with a casino there makes any sense. Toronto doesn't need the revenue and the risks are greater than any benefits. MTCC should be redeveloped into something that enhances the quality of life of the 30,000+ people who will call this neighbourhood home by the time the dust settles, and this proposal falls short.
 
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^Actually, putting the casino in 52 division might not be a bad idea. With all of the nightclubs closing in favour of condo developments, 52 division's pipeline of extortion targets is drying up. A casino would be manna from heaven for them. Loan-sharking and money-laundering have healthy profit margins that can afford to wet the beaks of Toronto's finest. And a steady supply of zoned-out slot junkies and other various degenerates makes for unreliable witnesses (not that the justice system would punish cops, anyway).

Jeez, I had been worried, but now I finally think everything's going to be alright...
 
Lets see what happened in Philidelphia, which opened an inner city Casino in 2010.
While the casino planned for Toronto will be on a much greater scale and the casino is only performing at 2/3rd of the original revenue estimates, I think the Phili example is a better predictor than RC8's "Concern" and "Worry".

axisphilly.org

Philadelphia doubles down on casinos: Is it a good bet?
by Hayden Mitman, Feb. 5, 2013
...
While property values near the casino have not gone up as casino proponents predicted, the news is not all bad for the community surrounding the casino. The casino has created 1098 local jobs, and Penn Treaty Special Services District – a community board established to distribute community impact funds provided by Sugarhouse – has distributed nearly a million dollars to a variety of local groups and organizations.

As for jobs, casino reports show that 67 percent of the casino’s employees are Pennsylvania residents. Fifty-three percent are white, 27 percent are African American, 6 percent are Hispanic and 12 percent are Asian. In fiscal year 2011-12 the casino contracted with women owned businesses to the tune of more than $2.3 million and minority owned businesses for more than $100,000.

O’Brien also said that the predictions of increased crime and traffic snarls that were made by opponents of the casino did not come to pass. And statistics seem to support that claim. The Pennsylvania State Police who patrol the interior of the casino have responded to 160 incidents in the casino for the full year of 2012. Most were for non-aggravated assaults and disorderly conduct.

Despite five highly publicized incidents in which winners were followed home and robbed of nearly $44,000, a spokeswoman from the Philadelphia Police Department’s 26th District, which patrols the surrounding area, said the casino had little impact on area crime.
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Results from another study of 6 communities where Casinos were recently build showed a similar result.
www.sagepub.com
Although the present research goes beyond previous tests, by studying
multiple casino jurisdictions and examining control jurisdictions and Part II
crimes, there still can be no conclusive statement regarding the effect that
casinos have on crime. The fact that the results are mixed suggests that there
may be some contextual factors operating in some communities that allowfor
casinos to positively affect crime under certain, as yet unknown, circumstances.
At the same time there is no way of knowing whether the apparent
casino effect, when present, is a direct one. When a casino opens in a community,
it often changes the nature of the community in a multitude ofways, both
positively (e.g., stimulating the economy and adding employment and enter-
282 CRIME & DELINQUENCY / APRIL 2003
tainment options) and negatively (e.g., adding traffic congestion, altering traditional
patterns of interaction, and introducing large numbers of nonresidents
into a community). The interplay of these and other factors (location,
size, and number of casinos; state gaming regulations; lawenforcement policies;
etc.) vary by jurisdiction and may well determine the effect of the casino
on crime in the community. Finally, in those instances where crimes have
increased suggesting a possible casino effect, it will be very difficult to determine
if the increase is due to casino-related factors or increased tourism,
which has been linked to increases in crime in other studies (Chesney-Lind&
Lind, 1986; Jarrell & Howsen, 1990).
Clearly, more research is needed to clarify the relationship of casinos to
crime. At this point, however, it can be concluded that comparing multiple
jurisdictions where casino gambling has been introduced and comparing
them to matched control jurisdictions reveals that crime does not appear to be
an inevitable or necessary product of casino presence.
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If we make a list of pros and cons for this Casino/resort project, many of the pros would go into the actual/verifiable and the cons into the possible.

Pro.
Billions in construction dollars and construction jobs.
A unique signature architectural addition to our city.
New ongoing revenue (amounts to be determined I agree) stream for the city.
Thousands of new casino, hotel and convention centre jobs.
New tourism/convention business offering for the city.

Cons
Traffic gridlock. (Worsening, because we already have it to an extent)
Increase in Crime.(Not only gambling related but fraud, prostitution, drugs, assault, theft and robbery)
Risk to problem Gamblers with possible increase in suicide rates, marriage brakeup, loss of homes, jobs...
Loss of tourism due to tarnished image of Toronto as a moral/clean city.
Neighbourhood changes discouraging families from relocating to the neighbourhood.

I'm sure you can add more but on balance, I'll take the likely benefits now over potential negative effects in the future.
 
The Philadelphia casino a good example for what?! Mate, have you been to Toronto in the past 10 years?

The Philadelphia casino is a monstruous low rise thing on a non-central location surrounded by parking, that everyone drives to, and that is surrounded by decaying residential and industrial low-rises (separated from the residential area by a highway).

It's equivalent to building our casino at Woodbine, if anything.

As for your pros, there's nothing there that we won't get anyway when we redevelop MTCC without the inclusion of a casino. Toronto is not Philadelphia, we don't need that money at all.
 
Automation Gallery said:
Yeah, and Toronto is far from the city you imagine or dream of.
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http://www.investtoronto.ca/InvestAssets/PDF/Reports/Global Livability Report (2011) _EUI.pdf

http://aon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25776&item=128557

http://www.longfinance.net/Publications/GFCI 11.pdf

http://www.managementthinking.eiu.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Hot Spots.pdf


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