Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[unimaginative2]

The province has only committed to funding 2/3 of these projects - their desire is that the feds would pay the other 1/3. However the latest budget makes it clear that will never happen - at least with the current jokers running the place. So the city is going to have to come up with 1/3 of the cost here. If people propose $20 billion of subway, the city still needs clost to $7 billion.

First of all, nobody said anything about $20 billion of subway. We're talking about a plan with marginally increased cost over the existing Transit City. The province will either pick up the remaining third, or the Federal government will eventually come through. We'll have an election pretty soon.

Building the proposed 13.6 km Sheppard East subway as LRT would cost $2.7 billion using a conservative $200 million per km. $250 million per km is likely more appropriate if you want to cost like Transit city in future $, in staed of current $ - so that's $3.4 billion - and that doesn't include vehicles. So a 5-time multiplier doesn't seem unreasonable. Also as noted above, building a good chunk of this as subway is likely a good idea - and probably easier to build a new intermodal station at Victoria Park, than try and get something convenient retrofitted into Don Mills.

Where on Earth are you getting these figures? $200 million a kilometre for LRT? What are you talking about? Do you mean Hong Kong Dollars or something? And you think subways will cost 5 times that?! I'm afraid you don't have too much credibility on this issue. There isn't a subway in the world that costs that much. Hell, I don't think Crossrail even costs that much. If you actually believe it costs $200 a kilometre for LRT, you still haven't mentioned any benefits that it would bring in terms of travel time or reliability to justify that massive cost.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Exactly. That's what I figure. The DRL and WWLRT complement each other beautifully. Exhibition could be a fantastic transit hub, with subway, LRT, and GO trains. A trip from downtown to Park Lawn could potentially take less than 20 minutes, which is very competitive with the car and would completely eliminate people riding up to the Bloor subway and back down again to get downtown from south Etobicoke.

That's the same dilemna facing Leslieville/Beach residents and the 83/92 routes aren't even regular service. Where's their transit hub?

Ah, dentrobate. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, but I assume you're making jabs at the DRL. Which meandering alignments over the rail corridor are you talking about? They're all pretty much due west and north. The Weston corridor route, which you say you support, is partly on a diagonal, so I guess it's the most meandering of the bunch.

Transit Toronto has posted 3 likely paths. Along elitist Parkside, the commerical but fragile Roncesvalles and adjacent to the Weston-Galt SUB where only one intermediate's required at Lawsdowme/Dundas. Bloor to Union via Weston-Galt is only 6kms whereas Roncesvalles adds 2kms and Parkside 3kms. All that for two more stops (Queen and Howard Park)?

Again, not too sure what you're saying. The DRL obviously shares a bit of the corridor and would attract many of the riders of the WWLRT. I think it's a better option, though, because it would be much, much faster, more reliable, and therefore attract far more people. The point of the DRL isn't just to serve people around the intermediate stops, but I can't quite see how south Parkdale or the Ex are very close to BD or YUS.

Ugh, not central downtown nodes being far from YUS, the outcrops of Southern Etobicoke and Beaches/southwestern Scarborough. You'd be cutting all that off to route another subway line kittycorner to the catchments of YUS/BD. The population densities of the inner and outer suburbs aren't similar and shouldn't be regarded as Willowdale being more deserving of a line because they live farther away from downtown Toronto than Swansea or Leslieville.

The Markham and Sheppard extension would benefit, if we're being generous, people from parts of Malvern very slightly by allowing them to transfer from their bus to the RT somewhat earlier than they do now. However, it adds an extra transfer, negating the time savings, if they're going to Town Centre, the most popular destination in Scarborough. By contrast, extending the subway to Town Centre would save everybody in north and east Scarborough, including Malvern residents, a significant amount of time and inconvenience when they're going to the BD, and Malvern would still have a direct trip to Town Centre. They'd be far better served, anyway, by a Neilson express route that uses shoulder bus lanes on the 401 from Neilson to McCowan. Total cost: A few thousand dollars for signs saying that the bus can drive on the shoulder.

Question: how long do you think it takes via bus to get from Malvern Town Centre to Scarborough Centre? 30...35 minutes . Yes the subway benefits more people but if all we're doing is merely covering everywhere the SRT's already covers (or less seeing that BOTH Ellesmere and Midland, and even McCowan could be goners) without an additional mile of new areas served then maybe, and I'm just saying, we shouldn't be quick too cast down this proposal in fire and brimstone. Naturally I'd want a subway line to UTSC but not at the expense of denying several thousands of people a direct route to their homes, transfer or no transfer IMO.

Building the proposed 13.6 km Sheppard East subway as LRT would cost $2.7 billion using a conservative $200 million per km.

Can we get 13.6 kms of Eglinton subway instead ? I think alot of debate over how to serve Pearson with rapid transit would quell if we get this line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dentrobate: do you realize that you're fighting about the DRL with the guy that wrote the article you're quoting from? And he says that the Parkside alignment was a throwaway option that was never going to be built - no one was ever going to build an elevated line in High Park.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Oh, I can totally see where his bias comes from now. Thanks Scarberian.

 

[Edward Skira]

Dentrobate: do you realize that you're fighting about the DRL with the guy that wrote the article you're quoting from?

Was wondering when that fact would be exposed

 

[scarberiankhatru]

He's exposed it several times already! I believe he did so arguing with nfitz like two days ago and he did so when allabootmatt wrote to the councillors about the DRL last year.

 

[Panzerfaust]

Dentrobate: do you realize that you're fighting about the DRL with the guy that wrote the article you're quoting from?

There are few times I have laughed out loud so hard at a single statement. I think this argument is over.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Building the proposed 13.6 km Sheppard East subway as LRT would cost $2.7 billion using a conservative $200 million per km. $250 million per km is likely more appropriate if you want to cost like Transit city in future $, in staed of current $ - so that's $3.4 billion - and that doesn't include vehicles. So a 5-time multiplier doesn't seem unreasonable.

Your numbers are hilariously wrong. They are pure fiction.

-- the politicians certainly don't want to wait 8 years for the ribbons to be ready

-- it's still not clear to me if there is anywhere in 416 that TC-lashers would acknowledge is appropriate for light rail

And how long will Transfer City lines take to build? The city's very lucky that suburbanites probably won't know or care about such projects enough to fight them like St. Clair was fought.

I'm the biggest Transfer City basher on the forum yet even I think there's loads of places that are appropriate for streetcars, or even light rail...Sheppard and Don Mills are not among them!

To wit:
- Finch West will be the surprise winner...it'll be a great line. (In a fantasy map world, the Sheppard subway would be extended along Finch West, but this isn't very realistic)
- Eglinton could work...we just won't know until it's running. The risk is that we'll end up with Spadina streetcars in a tunnel but with a huge price tag.
- Waterfront West should be an improvement.
- Jane...it could work, but I think the money would be better spent elsewhere, especially given the Spadina extension, and the Finch West, Eglinton, and St. Clair lines.
- Lawrence East is damn-near perfect.
- Wilson/Albion (west of Wilson station, though...Hogg's Hollow could pose a problem)
- Dufferin (the hill at Davenport may be a problem)
- Bathurst (again, the hill near Davenport may be a problem)
- I'm not opposed to Kingston, even though it used to have a streetcar that took 2 hours to get downtown.
- Everywhere along Queen's Quay or the portlands.
- McCowan/Danforth Road, Kennedy, and Warden all have potential, particularly if they run up to Markham (Kennedy could be made redundant by the Stouffville line, though)
- There's several roads in the SW quadrant of the city that I'm not as familiar with but could work, including Weston, Lawrence West, etc.

But I've said all this before.

The point is that Transfer City was planned to bring streetcars to every ward and to troubled areas like Malvern and Jane & Finch, knowing full well that massive funding was on the way to pay for it all. It is not based on ridership or good planning. It puts all of Scarborough's eggs into Malvern's basket, which a big slap in the face to the other half a million people living east of VP. It does *nothing* for downtown, further proof that Transfer City is the result of pure streetcar fetishism and not a comprehensive plan to move Torontonians. It goes out of its way to put streetcars where there should be subways, preempting them for, at a minimum, several generations.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

There are few times I have laughed out loud so hard at a single statement. I think this argument is over.

Just because he's the author, doesn't mean his article has canonical fixity. New people can come along, interpret his ideas and figure things out for themselves. That's what exegesis is all about. I hardly see how something proposed in 1985 still has any relevancy today, especially if it still doesn't solve the issue of inaccessible inner city nodal pockets getting a mass transit boost.

I'm the biggest Transfer City basher on the forum

Believe me, we know . I guess that makes me the biggest d'Earl basher.

It does *nothing* for downtown, further proof that Transfer City is the result of pure streetcar fetishism and not a comprehensive plan to move Torontonians. It goes out of its way to put streetcars where there should be subways, preempting them for, at a minimum, several generations.

Doesn't that tell you anything? TC winces over downtown because nothing short of a new east-west subway line is applicable there. However if City Hall/Giambrone comes right out admitting it every Tom, Dick and Harry 416/905 ward will b*tch how they're being left out. Wasn't it you who said Finch West will be a massive success? If TC in theory does nothing else it has at least sparked public interest in seeing a city-wide transit campaign not limited to a couple stations added onto already exhausted subway lines. Get it TC mitigates the strain already placed on 30+ kilometres and stations of subway, not add more pressure.

Lawrence East is damn-near perfect.

Lawrence East is the perfect appendage to the Eglinton line. If not for Guildwood (which in of itself could be skipped seeing that the line passes Bellamy/Eglinton GO) at Markham the TC could veer up to Cedarbrae and continue east from there, rejoining the Kingston/Morningside alignment onwards north. The 54 is a great bus as is, with too many local stops to shelf for an express LRT line. All it needs is a subway access point (Cedarbrae/Morningside) east of Lawrence East to minimize commutes.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Duncetrobate: the Finch West line will relieve Yonge and feed Spadina, which can handle more people. The other Transfer City lines will do no such thing.

The 54 is a nightmare that gets caught in heavy traffic every day, is completely unreliable in Scarborough, and takes forever to get to the subway, and it does all this with perpetual standing room only crowds. A streetcar ROW should be a solid improvement. You should try taking the line instead of just deciding it's great based on glancing at it in the Ride Guide or your MapArt book.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Why do you assume I don't ride the 54 bus? I'm not getting my stats from osmosis you know Barbariankhatru. I told you that BRT/LRTs along Markham Rd and/or Kingston Rd would break up the 54 bus into different passenger markets. If you live in Port Union/West Hill would you seriously stay on the bus past Kingston Rd when you can transfer onto the LRT line?

Again for the umpteeenth time, don't be too amusing that every TC line will be a 'streetcar' line. Lakeshore West and Finch West will alleviate BD. Sheppard East will feed Sheppard subway. Eglinton-Crosstown and Scarborough-Malvern form a 'subway corridor' all on their own. Don Mills and Jane flank YUS on both sides so obviously will siphon away passengers. There, every line relieves the subway network and might even become subways themselves in time.

 

[Dan416]

I decided to make a crappy little map of what I maintain needs to be done at a minimum to improve Toronto's subway system:

As you can see I have Eglinton stretching from Pearson in the west to Kennedy in the east.

I have the Dundas-Bloor line extending west to MCC.

Danforth continues on to SCC.

Sheppard continues west to connect with the Spadina line, and east to connect with SCC.

The DRL I just show as following the rail corridor to the Bloor line, and following the DVP on the east side.

I also show the announced extensions of Spadina to VCC and Yonge to RHC.

EDIT: If you can't read the legend, red is existing subway, pink is what's been "announced", and blue is what I propose.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I agree with everything there except for your DRL plans. Why would it follow the Don Valley Parkway? Nobody lives on highways, and the highway itself as well as the river pose barriers. A much better plan would be to follow the rail corridors as much as possible. This would keep it relatively cheap due to a lack of tunneling while still serving areas that need serving. On top of that, rail corridors are not nearly as much of a barrier as a highway is, what with the lack of speeding cars and, in the case of the DVP, water.

MY DRL would run south from Dundas West along the rail corridor. It would duck underground for a short distance north-east of Dufferin and King so as to hit the Exhibition, then it would continue east in the rail corridor, heading underground once again to hit Union. After that it would raise back to the surface and run in the rail corridor until Pape. At Pape it would duck underground and run up to Pape Station. As you can see, not very much tunneling and existing density along most of the line, as well as future density in the Portlands.

This is very similar to your plan, but the east end would be in the rail corridor and then underground, rather than on the edge of the DVP.

EDIT: I missed the bit where you sent the B-D into Mississauga. While I would agree with an extension to maybe West Mall, running it all the way to MCC wouldn't work too well IMO. Improved GO service would probably work better, since it would be faster for everyone involved. The Mississauga Transitway will help in this respect.

 

[Dan416]

I agree with everything there except for your DRL plans. Why would it follow the Don Valley Parkway? Nobody lives on highways, and the highway itself as well as the river pose barriers. A much better plan would be to follow the rail corridors as much as possible. This would keep it relatively cheap due to a lack of tunneling while still serving areas that need serving. On top of that, rail corridors are not nearly as much of a barrier as a highway is, what with the lack of speeding cars and, in the case of the DVP, water.

MY DRL would run south from Dundas West along the rail corridor. It would duck underground for a short distance north-east of Dufferin and King so as to hit the Exhibition, then it would continue east in the rail corridor, heading underground once again to hit Union. After that it would raise back to the surface and run in the rail corridor until Pape. At Pape it would duck underground and run up to Pape Station. As you can see, not very much tunneling and existing density along most of the line, as well as future density in the Portlands.

This is very similar to your plan, but the east end would be in the rail corridor and then underground, rather than on the edge of the DVP.

EDIT: I missed the bit where you sent the B-D into Mississauga. While I would agree with an extension to maybe West Mall, running it all the way to MCC wouldn't work too well IMO. Improved GO service would probably work better, since it would be faster for everyone involved. The Mississauga Transitway will help in this respect.

Honestly the DRL I don't really know a whole lot about. I'd leave the exact routing to experts. Point is, I think it's an important part of any subway plan for Toronto, as is a subway extension to MCC. The Mississauga Transitway is almost universally panned as being useless to most people in Mississauga. Whereas a subway to MCC would be very well used. Remember we have to plan for the future here, and MCC will only become denser, and Mississauga is already the densest part of the GTA outside of the 416. As you can see I left the VCC subway on the map, so it only makes sense to go to MCC and SCC too.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm not getting my stats from osmosis you know Barbariankhatru.

Oh, I believe that you don't acquire stats through osmosis.

I used to have a Diablo II character named BarbarianKhatru, a concentration barb.