Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[unimaginative2]

When your simply talking about a very limited amount of subway, that fails to serve most of the territory covered by Transit City. Sure, great for a few people, but no benefit to most.

Like I said in the other thread: What the streetcar fans don't understand is that you can "benefit" from a line without living within a few hundred yards of a stop. Someone at Lawrence and Vic Park would benefit from a subway on Don Mills, because it means a short hop on the bus and a very fast and direct subway ride downtown. Someone living in the Beach benefits from a DRL, even though the DRL doesn't have stops in their neighbourhood, because they can get off the Queen streetcar at Pape and transfer to the subway for their trips downtown. People at McCowan and Finch don't have a station on a subway replacing the Scarborough RT, but they still benefit from an eliminated transfer at Kennedy and faster ride downtown. Conversely, people don't benefit from a station at their doorstep if it doesn't take them anywhere they want to go or takes forever to get there.

Quite clearly I typoed, and I meant $200 million a kilometre for subway - that was quite apparent from the context of what I was saying, and all the past discussion about $200 million for subway. I don't see why you'd be pretending to not understand that it was a typo ... and I can only assume that your more interested in having an argument than have a constructive conversation.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Well, I'm glad that's cleared up, because it wasn't clear to me. Like I said, you have had some creative approaches to costing in the past. Of course, nobody would ever build all 13 km of the Sheppard streetcar as a subway. It would run from Town Centre to North York Centre, connecting the two main hubs of transit in those areas. Spending hundreds of millions on higher order transit out to Port Union is truly preposterous if you've ever seen that neighbourhood. And I love how they talk about extending it to Pickering! You go through 5 km of park and protected farmland, and then you reach a few fringe subdivisions of the worst suburban sprawl. Definitely worth higher-order transit!

I agree with you, EnviroTO. That's why I even agree that the western arm of the DRL could reasonably end at Dundas West, ideally with a cross-platform transfer (like Richmond BART) with an S-Bahn-style GO line (~15 minute frequences each, or better) to Mississauga and Weston/Brampton/Pearson.

Hurontario seems to me like a perfect spot for real light rail. It should be enough capacity for my lifetime, especially with an RER/S-Bahn on the Milton GO line diverted north to MCC.

 

[nfitz]

More then once, you've claimed subways cost over $1 billion per km.

That is a complete and total lie. I have never claimed anything of the kind. Ever. That's the most outlandish thing I've ever heard in my entire life. I think the highest number I've used is on the order of $250 million. One one occasion, I had reversed the words LRT and subway and said that LRT was $250 million per km, but the meaning was clear from the context, and I then fixed the post. But to claim that I've been saying that subway is over $1 billion a km is nothing but bullshit.

and nfitz, quoting someone but altering the words is not good netiquette.

Another lie. I've never edited anyone elses words in a quote - not knowingly at least. If I have, put to it, and I will fix it. I've only ever my own typos, when I've quoted myself - and I'm sure that no one is anal enough to be complaining about that!

Why are you making such lies? It completely ridicules anything you say on this forum to be making such claims. I can only assume that there absolutely no basis for anything you say here.

Clearly you are just a troll. Go away troll.

Like I said, you have had some creative approaches to costing in the past.

Create approaches? I don't recall anything that wasn't either using recently published TTC or similiar estimates, or using the $200 to $250 million estimate for subway. Apart from that, I believe I on one occasion used the inflation rate for the last 20 years or so, to inflate current $ to future $ to figure out what the subway would cost in future $ - but I don't think that would be called a creative approach unless one was perhaps fundamentally ignorant of basic economics.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

nfitz: The meaning from your typo was not clear, otherwise we wouldn't have misunderstood it. Earlier, you claimed we'd need $60 billion to build the few subway projects some have argued are necessary...$60 billion would build several hundred kilometres of subways, far more than anyone is talking about. Either you think we want over 200km of subways, in which case you're not reading anything we write (which wouldn't be the first time), or you think the cost per km is absurdly high and we're misunderstanding what you write (which also wouldn't be the first time). But, again, I addressed this in my previous post, so calm down and move on.

You quoted me quoting your post with the typo, but changed it to remove the typo.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

^ Shesh, where was all this compassion and empathy when my typos were being shreaded left, right and center? Just saying.

 

[nfitz]

nfitz: The meaning from your typo was not clear, otherwise we wouldn't have misunderstood it.

It was perfectly clear in context - though obviously backwards, you chose to misunderstand it, because you are trolling. Unless you really think that someone would seriously suggest that a km of LRT would cost $250 million.

Earlier, you claimed we'd need $60 billion to build the few subway projects some have argued are necessary...

Why are you mis-quoting me like that? I never said a few subway projects would cost $60 billion, the number I used was $6 billion and then I went on to say that you'd need $60 billion to get the kind of bang your (which I guess is also a typo, I should have said you're, and perhaps I should have used the plural form "y'all are") looking for. Which yes, would be over 200 km of subway. Transit City is about 125 km; Kingston Road LRT extension is about 10 km. The Yonge and Spadina Extension are another 20 km. Danforth Extension to Sheppard/Markham is another 15 km. DRL is about 15 km. Bloor Extension to Hurontario and up to Square One is 15 km. That's about 200 km or so ... which would cost about $60 billion if we do what the subway-fans want. I didn't bother to follow-up on your OMG $60 billion post, as it seemed you were just trolling, rather than being serious.

You quoted me quoting your post with the typo, but changed it to remove the typo.

Oh my god, I fixed my typo - I'll burn in hell for that one. First you complain about my typo, and now your complaining I fixed it?? I'm trying to make sure things are clear.

^ Shesh, where was all this compassion and empathy when my typos were being shreaded left, right and center? Just saying.

Dentrobate54, we love you too ... even if you can't spell centre like a proper Canadian

 

[scarberiankhatru]

nfitz: when your entire argument is based on comparing the cost of X to the cost of Y, you should be more careful about the numbers you use, otherwise you're just trolling for a fight.

 

[nfitz]

you should be more careful about the numbers you use, otherwise you're just trolling for a fight.

There isn't a single number I have used in discussion here, that hasn't had a basis to it. One can't discuss cost of systems without using numbers - and I've been careful to use reasonable back-of-the-envelope estimates or documented numbers at all times. However, they are just that, estimates - but I've never tried to use inflated numbers for anything. I resent the suggestion that any of my numbers are trolling. And I resent the suggest that I haven't been careful with numbers. It's quite clear that few here want to have a rational discussion of the whole thing, and many people simply want to try and shoot down anything they don't agree with, rather than have a discussion. It's like trying to discuss politics with fundamentalist Tory supporter.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Every time someone suggests spending an extra billion or two to replace a Transfer City line with a subway extension or suggests that spending a billion dollars on streetcars to Malvern may not be prudent, you toss around claims that "subway-fans" are demanding $20, $50, $60 billion worth of subways. Using nothing but hypothetical arguments and questionable estimates to shoot people down just doesn't work.

 

[nfitz]

Every time someone suggests spending an extra billion or two to replace a Transfer City line with a subway extension or suggests that spending a billion dollars on streetcars to Malvern may not be prudent, you toss around claims that "subway-fans" are demanding $20, $50, $60 billion worth of subways. Using nothing but hypothetical arguments and questionable estimates to shoot people down just doesn't work.

Every time? I think I've only ever used the numbers like that once. Which I can tell you is a lot less, than the number of posts I've seen on this forum with FANtasy maps showing a $50 billion and more worth of subways. I see no problem with people hypothesizing a bit of trackage here, or converting a LRT line to subway there ... it's those here, that want to entirely kill all LRT lines, and simply build an equivalent value of subways INSTEAD, that I think is the issue. What, no hypothetical arguments on the Internet?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Once per page, maybe. Not a single person in this thread has suggested building that much subway. Doady didn't even remove all the Transfer City lines in his "revised" version...I don't believe there's anyone on the forum who is opposed to LRT lines in theory, just where they're misused in practice, such as Morningside. You've confused fantasy map posts in other threads with legitimate proposals in this thread to scrap absurd lines like Morningside and the RT extension and use that money to build undeniably useful - but, according to you, impossibly unaffordable - subway projects like the Danforth extension to STC.

Your condemnation of "fantasy" proposals is highly ironic given your stance that a project with a higher mileage of track = a better project. What is this track? Where does it go? Who cares! There's more of it!

 

[unimaginative2]

nfitz, don't you recognize that subway lines can benefit far more people than can simply walk to a station? The TTC sure does, since it routes every single route in the city (bar one) to a subway station. The subway is the backbone of the system in the way a streetcar in the middle of the street will never be. 50 km of "LRT" (and Transit City is hardly LRT in the traditional sense) is not even remotely equivalent to 50 km of subway.

Why are you mis-quoting me like that? I never said a few subway projects would cost $60 billion, the number I used was $6 billion and then I went on to say that you'd need $60 billion to get the kind of bang your (which I guess is also a typo, I should have said you're, and perhaps I should have used the plural form "y'all are") looking for. Which yes, would be over 200 km of subway. Transit City is about 125 km; Kingston Road LRT extension is about 10 km. The Yonge and Spadina Extension are another 20 km. Danforth Extension to Sheppard/Markham is another 15 km. DRL is about 15 km. Bloor Extension to Hurontario and up to Square One is 15 km. That's about 200 km or so ... which would cost about $60 billion if we do what the subway-fans want. I didn't bother to follow-up on your OMG $60 billion post, as it seemed you were just trolling, rather than being serious.

Nobody is seriously suggesting building all of these routes you've mentioned. This would be so infinitely far beyond anything Transit City remotely contemplates as to be in an entirely different realm of discussion. Nobody would want to put a subway line on most of the Transit City routes. Who are these "subway fans" that you're talking about? Me? I posted my vision quite clearly a few posts ago, and it sounds nothing like that. I'd never put a subway on most of the Transit City routes, let along Kingston Road. The only routes people are saying should be built as subway are Sheppard, Kennedy to STC, and the DRL/Don Mills route. That's it.

Once again, I really think you should look a bit closer at the numbers. A Danforth extension to Markham and Sheppard (which is further than any of us have suggested -- we'd terminate at STC) is 8 km, not 15km.

I've always been partial to all y'all! What do you think? I've heard from some that y'all is plural, while from others that it's singular and all y'all is plural. I am far too northern to know for sure.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Also, the Yonge & Spadina extensions are 15km, not 20km; Bloor to Square One is 12km, not 15km; and the DRL is 12km, not 15km. When you're comparing X km of subways with Y km of LRT, even on fantasy maps, the 18 added km in these four segments makes a big difference.

 

[nfitz]

Once again, I really think you should look a bit closer at the numbers. A Danforth extension to Markham and Sheppard (which is further than any of us have suggested -- we'd terminate at STC) is 8 km, not 15km.

Ah yes - perhaps 10 km depending on routing. (I see no point terminating a subway a the centre of a node at STCC ... might as well go a bit further, to let people feed in from that direction too.). $58.75 billion then

Also, the Yonge & Spadina extensions are 15km, not 20km; Bloor to Square One is 12km, not 15km; and the DRL is 12km, not 15km. When you're comparing X km of subways with Y km of LRT, even on fantasy maps, the 18 added km in these four segments makes a big difference.

You may be correct about Yonge and Spadina. Bloor to Square One via Sherway Gardens and along the available alignment on Queensway is 15 km - perhaps 14.5. DRL from Pape, down to Queen, and across up to Jane is 16 km - all depends on alignment, lately there's been talk of the Don Mills LRT ending at Coxwell instead of Pape, so then you are looking at 18 km. And if the DRL extends to Jane and St. Clair (because you have to tunnel, or go along the CN tracks somehow, and only goes to Pape you get 17 km. Realistically, using Pape, you'll still have to tunnel up to north of O'Connor, so might as well be subway ... so that's almost 20 km. So I'm 5 high on one, even on the other, and perhaps up to 5 low on the other ...

... clearly your more focused on the math, than the point.

Perhaps you should pay attention to the point. Whatever you gain whittling down a $60 billion to $57 billion cost for something that will never happen, is lost when you have to add several billion for equipment, which isn't in the calculation at all.

 

[unimaginative2]

No, nfitz, you're completely missing the point, and his point is that the math you're using to make your flawed point is flawed itself. The point is that nobody is suggesting this network you've built. It's a complete straw man that you've created so that you can bash it to make plans including subways look bad. You even said yourself that you decided to add length to the Danforth extension, again something that nobody has proposed. So, what this is is your plan for subways in Toronto. If you want to pursue this exercise, why not try costing one of the actual proposed networks that people have posted in this thread, rather than a straw man of your own creation?

I really think, nfitz, that you could have valuable contributions, if you read other people's posts and some of the reports and studies on which they're based. For example, DRL on Queen Street? The whole point of the line is that it's in the rail corridor, and Front Street downtown. We've been going on about this ad infinitum. Of course, you've costed all of these routes based on your very expensive idea of subway tunneling. You've not taken into account any of the suggestions made for cost savings (less Taj Mahaly stations, examination of single-bore tunnels, etc.), economies of scale, and -- most of all -- the fact that routes like the DRL are mostly on the surface. Likewise, a Don Mills subway would be elevated. Most of the Transit City lines that you propose as subway would be built on the surface, as well. I happen to believe that even some of the Danforth extension to STC should be elevated, rather than tunnelled.

I drove down Morningside again yesterday, and the idea of higher order transit there or on Sheppard east of there is even more comically ridiculous than before. These lines alone will cost at least $500 million, which would pay for close to the entire western segment of the DRL. It boggles the mind. There's nothing there. Just a few houses built up to the street, and some really nice trees in Morningside's median that would have to be chopped down. Oh, and there were a couple gas stations at the Sheppard intersection. The idea of extending the Sheppard streetcar further east is even more preposterous. As cdl has said, a lot of Torontonians have this monolithic view of "The 905." If only you can get a line across the city limits, you're "serving" Pickering. The Sheppard streetcar east of Twyn Rivers would serve, in order, a forest in Rouge Park, an agricultural preserve, and the fringes of some of the worst sprawl in the GTA, abutting even more farmland.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

nfitz: my distances are correct for the most commonly agreed upon alignments, but you are free to pore over various fantasy maps for lengthier alignments to add bulk to your straw man.

Nobody is proposing a Jane subway or a Kingston subway or a Morningside subway or a waterfront subway, etc. When your *entire* justification behind claiming Transfer City is perfect as is and subways are unaffordable and unnecessary rests on an exact length of subways vs an exact length of LRT, why fudge the math?

The difference in cost between a tunneled Eglinton LRT and a full subway (that would run on the surface in the Richview corridor and much of Scarborough) would most certainly not be multiplied by 5-10 times. The "subway fans" you're arguing with don't even all agree that an Eglinton subway should be built, anyway.

Based on your posts, you're a fan of 1) disagreeing and 2) whatever the TTC or the city thinks should be built. The city/TTC says over $2 billion worth of transit should be built to Malvern (but not actually go to Malvern) instead of spending a shade over $1 billion on a subway extension and another $X hundred million on an LRT somewhere in Scarborough...this is in addition to improved GO lines, mind you. If you honestly agree with this, you've clearly never been to Scarborough and do not have a grasp of what's in the best interest of the city.