Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)

[lenaitch]

Uhhh,

The FLQ kidnapped, and murdered a provincial cabinet minister and Deputy Premier, Pierre LaPorte
They also kidnapped a British Diplomat, James Cross.

To even remotely compare the nonsense on the border, or in Ottawa to kidnapping, murder and bombings is completely irrational and unacceptable.
Not the same at all.

I have no time for the blockades or the Ottawa occupation.....the point has been made, such as it is, long ago.
That said, there have been no bombings, no kidnappings and no murders............not remotely on the same level as the October Crisis.

Yet. I'm not willing to dismiss some rogue element, lone or otherwise, going off-script, either in some ideological crusade or seeking their 15 minutes of infamy. It would probably evaporate any remaining public support.

You think the murder of 8 people is actually more destructive than a per day economic loss to the tune of a neat billion?

AoD

In an economic sense, no; but murder is the ultimate crime against humanity. I don't remember enough whether they had a significant economic impact, but I doubt it.

 

[Northern Light]

Per day - plus the knock on effect (human and otherwise) of that economic loss has to be taken into account as well. You are also rather unrealistically sanguine about the supply chain - our trading partners sure have noticed this lapse and would no doubt see it as a potential reason to repatriate their jobs if these disruption holds. Has FLQ ever achieved this level of damage to the nation as a whole?

AoD

I'm not indifferent at all.

I have supported taking action to end the blockades.

I simply find your comparison unreasonable.

***

Strikes happen, I watched every car plant at major car companies in Ontario idled for weeks a few decades ago. Its a thing.
People who object to whatever (in the case of workers, working conditions, wages, layoffs/job security etc.) hold a company hostage to leverage their demands.
That's legal, the world doesn't end.

This conduct is not legal. As a protest of a day or so, it would be normal to tolerate it; we're clearly past that point.

But the conduct in question, though illegal, obstructive and in need of corrective action is non-violent, not terrorism and cannot be equated with same.

To do so is to do what US talkshow host Bill Maher just did and equate Trudeau with Hitler.

Its off-the-rails, over-the-top and way too much.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yet. I'm not willing to dismiss some rogue element, lone or otherwise, going off-script, either in some ideological crusade or seeking their 15 minutes of infamy. It would probably evaporate any remaining public support.

In an economic sense, no; but murder is the ultimate crime against humanity. I don't remember enough whether they had a significant economic impact, but I doubt it.

It is pretty clear we are dealing with multiple groups here - some of the truckers are no doubt just there to protest; but it is pretty clear from various sources (and analogue movements elsewhere, like in the article I have posted about the situation in NZ) that it is corrupted (or easily corruptible) by other forces (you can label some of them as accelerationists). The moment you have a refusal to obey an injunction (and in fact, the subsequent doubling-down) meant that this has crossed the line and will require a response.

Not to underplay the murders -but we are dealing with a totally different creature with different aims here.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

In respect of my last post, note this:

Bill Maher says Freedom Convoy truckers have right to be 'pissed off'

Real Time host Bill Maher, 66, questioned 'why truckers' were protesting when they were '90 percent vaccinated,' but said they have a right to be 'pissed off.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

And I quote from same:

I have no time for this ridiculous, over-the-top statement either.

 

[Northern Light]

I also want to note this from BC:

Convoy vehicles break through RCMP barricades as B.C. border crossing effectively closed | Globalnews.ca

Saturday's convoy in the Lower Mainland was expected to roll from Chilliwack to 8th Avenue and 176 Street in Surrey, close to the U.S. border truck crossing.

globalnews.ca

From the above:

I gather no one was hurt, or I would expect that to headline the piece............

But this betrays a level of organization, equipping and planning that is disconcerting and needs to be met with with a stiffer reaction.

 

[Northern Light]

Ok....this was amusing:

(From Twitter)

Completely unfair to 90% of truckers who are vaccinated............but still funny.

 

[Bjays92]

Not to underplay the murders -but we are dealing with a totally different creature with different aims here.

AoD

Which is precisely why the FLQ comparison is irrelevant.

Comparing any protest movement today to one from half a century ago is futile.

Also as people have noted, there is substantial fear of organized violence, but there has yet to be. We cannot respond in current time over the pretext of what could happen, we must respond in terms of what we are dealing with in the now. In the meantime we must be adequately prepared for what could happen, and mobilize quickly to prevent violence or other nefarious actions if they start to materialize.

Currently however, we are doing neither, we are not responding appropriately to what is currently happening and we are woefully unprepared for any sort of escalation.

Also of note, it is well know both China and Russia are funding disinformation and trying to sow discord in the West, I do not think one can downplay the potential Russian hand in all of this, especially given the current circumstances. Russia is very active on Facebook promoting groups and conspiracy theories through troll farms, and on the ground protests with funding. While by no means am I implying all the protestors are Russian agents, looking at how quickly this movement has spread throughout all of five eyes and NATO countries is highly suspect. It may have started as a grassroots movement but we all know it has been hijacked and it is certainly convenient that much of the west could soon be preoccupied with these protests going on in their backyards while Russia eyes up Ukraine.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

They are the same extremists as those in the Washington insurrection. They both want to overthrow the current government.

I get that. And I am painfully aware of that. It's the doublethink implored in their branding is truly terrifying, joking aside IMO. /bleh

Speaking of which...

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt; and that you apparently do not is deeply concerning.

...you don't want these people in power. The rollback of our civil liberties and such will make our dealings with the FLQ look like a walk in the park. Just saying.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Which is precisely why the FLQ comparison is irrelevant.

Comparing any protest movement today to one from half a century ago is futile.

Also as people have noted, there is substantial fear of organized violence, but there has yet to be. We cannot respond in current time over the pretext of what could happen, we must respond in terms of what we are dealing with in the now. In the meantime we must be adequately prepared for what could happen, and mobilize quickly to prevent violence or other nefarious actions if they start to materialize.

Currently however, we are doing neither, we are not responding appropriately to what is currently happening and we are woefully unprepared for any sort of escalation.

Also of note, it is well know both China and Russia are funding disinformation and trying to sow discord in the West, I do not think one can downplay the potential Russian hand in all of this, especially given the current circumstances. Russia is very active on Facebook promoting groups and conspiracy theories through troll farms, and on the ground protests with funding. While by no means am I implying all the protestors are Russian agents, looking at how quickly this movement has spread throughout all of five eyes and NATO countries is highly suspect. It may have started as a grassroots movement but we all know it has been hijacked and it is certainly convenient that much of the west could soon be preoccupied with these protests going on in their backyards while Russia eyes up Ukraine.

Let's just say I am not huge believer in co-incidence, especially convenient ones. I think we need to have a rather frank conversation about what freedom of speech and authenticity of behaviour online actually meant here in the West.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

...you don't want these people in power. The rollback of our civil liberties and such will make our dealings with the FLQ look like a bed of roses. Just saying.

They aren't in power, aren't running for office and I wouldn't vote for them if they did.

They are nowhere close to seizing the government nor making a serious attempt at doing so.

What they are doing is illegal and disruptive and I oppose it, and favour an appropriate police action to address it.

But I can't countenance over-reach in the description of their actions, however dislikeable they may be.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

They aren't in power, aren't running for office and I wouldn't vote for them if they did.

They are nowhere close to seizing the government nor making a serious attempt at doing so.

What they are doing is illegal and disruptive and I oppose it, and favour an appropriate police action to address it.

But I can't countenance over-reach in the description of their actions, however dislikeable they may be.

Not to be a pain here but...

...while I agree they're not running around bagging cabinet minsters or storming Parliament Hill, yet. But we should not underestimate their resolve now or for the future. They are scary. And again, you don't want them in power.

So this is not about any likeable personality test...this about their views becoming public policy. And I'm not sure I am being unreasonable in my fears about of that.

 

[tiffer24]

I'm sure Bill Maher will be deeply disappointed. As will the "reporters" at Fox News.

Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity cheered the truckers on while showing four live reports from Ottawa this week. Tucker Carlson's online store is selling "I (heart) Tucker" T-shirts edited to say "I (heart) Truckers. Send our solidarity, love and support to all of the brave people who are there," Hannity told Fox reporter Sara Carter, who was with the protesters in Ottawa, on his show Thursday. "Don't give up."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainmen...s-cheer-on-canadian-trucker-protest-1.5777742

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492862150263595013

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It's been a good joke this past three weeks, but is someone gonna inform the trucker protestors that the provincial government has jurisdiction over COVID-19 policy and restrictions and not the Feds?

 

[zang]

It's been a good joke this past three weeks, but is someone gonna inform the trucker protestors that the provincial government has jurisdiction over COVID-19 policy and restrictions and not the Feds?

It's almost as if this whole thing was never about mandates and restrictions to begin with...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492536453443768324

 

[Northern Light]

It's been a good joke this past three weeks, but is someone gonna inform the trucker protestors that the provincial government has jurisdiction over COVID-19 policy and restrictions and not the Feds?

Essentially true, but not exactly true.
For truckers who cross the international border, they are subject to federal regulation, including vaccine rules.
It is a Federal vaccine mandate on truckers that was the 'nominal' issue here.

***

To be clear, I think for many of those attending the protests, there were a range of other issues not related to the federal mandate on truckers. Some being sincere objectors to various 'mandates' many of those provincial in nature; others being general disruptors and/or folks looking for a party of sorts.........

Finally you have some, particularly in the organizing class, who clearly have other motives entirely.