Admiral Beez
Superstar
Somehow I think that there’s no celibacy, involuntary or otherwise in jail.
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North York Centre Van Attack
- Thread starter Johnny Au
- Start date
Johnny Au
Senior Member
Apology accepted.
@animatronic @Admiral Beez
I am known for my technical style of writing and I don't mean any offence at all. I too have Asperger's Syndrome.
Back to related news.
The Southern Poverty Law Center in the United States wrote an article about this incident: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...w-incels-are-celebrating-toronto-mass-killing
This article provides greater context to Minassian's condition and how it relates to Eliot Rodger and other "involuntary celibates."
Videodrome
Senior Member
I have Asperger's and OCD, but would never ever think of a mass killing or even posting this dangerous stuff online!
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I can actually relate to some of these incel folks but find their misanthropy and nihilism to be abhorrent and baseless.
I've been celibate for 7 years now (ish....I've lost count), mostly because of a psychologically difficult and abusive relationship that ended about 7 years ago. Now I just enjoy the freedom of self and the beauty of restraint (it's like an accomplishment!). When I was younger (high school days), I was horribly depressed (suicidal thoughts, etc) and had extremely low self-esteem. Girls would constantly tell me that I'd be "attractive if...". I had no romantic relationships until I was 21. Then, I had two serious relationships in a row (about two years apart from one ending to the beginning of the next) through to my late 20s. Both were abusive and psychologically damaging affairs that I dealt with because of my low self-esteem at the time. I was always socially awkward (I'm brutally honest, shy, and self-concious). By the reckoning of most of these incels, I should be massively black pilled (attuned to the grievous state of the social world as it is). I'm not. I'm partially afraid of giving myself to another person in the context of a relationship because of previous experience (the bastards wasted my 20s!/ow, my heart) but I don't blame women for that one that was a complete monster (the other, earlier, relationship was with a guy).
I suppose it helps that I'm pretty fit (words not mine) and shouldn't have problems with romance, but I've sort of shut myself off from the world in this context so I come across as gruff and....I'm convinced I have a mean resting bitch face on constantly.
I still suffer from depression and self-image problems but I've learned to cope with them through humour, stubbornness, a love of life, and self-taught (and self-administered) cognitive behavioural therapy...and tea....and absolutely losing my shit at football matches.
I'm definitely voluntarily celibate though at this point, but have found that incels would find me to be in denial....or otherwise wack.
What I'm saying is....these people are severely psychologically afflicted, but I can understand how they feel.
Videodrome
Senior Member
One of my Facebook friends thinks this is a case for legalized prostitution. The guy was mad he couldn't get laid.
This is the MRA guy who talks a big game, but lives in his mom's basement.
This is the MRA guy who talks a big game, but lives in his mom's basement.
Northern Light
Superstar
There may be a case to be made for legalization of prostitution.
However that source, and that argument are not the ones anyone hoping to be persuasive would use, at least in my opinion.
***
I hasten to add, we simply don't have all the details about this fellow. I understand, and don't critique everyone's interest in whatever tidbits seem to come out.
But until we have a clearer, more comprehensive picture about this young man, I think it premature to serious discuss what might have prevented him, or someone like him from committing this atrocity.
Northern Light
Superstar
I thank you for sharing. I think its an important part of the conversation to come to understand how people who stand apart, by choice or otherwise, in sexual/romantic and other ways.
That said, as I posted elsewhere, we don't yet understand the full breadth of this man's metal health issues; nor how is personal biases were formed, or fomented.
As such, I think it premature to discuss how specific things might done differently as it relates to the case at hand.
But I think your story illustrates how many folks find themselves in challenging places emotionally; and how some, such as yourself, seem more competent/capable of handling the associated stresses, while others struggle profoundly and be susceptible to adverse influences/judgment.
That need to remain empathetic, as I know you addressed in your opening line, in no way excuses abhorrent or criminal conduct on the part of this man.
It may, however, explain it, in part, and that insight might allow us, in time, to make it a bit less likely that someone will do something equally awful in the future. (let us hope)
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Bit if you did, could you stop thinking of it. The shooter at Sandy Hook PS certainly had it on his mind.
Soop
Active Member
As far as what I have read (without taking a deep dive, cause there's not enough bleach in the world for that), hiring a prostitute doesn't fit with the feeling of entitlement. This isn't just guys saying, oh woe is me, I can't get a date, it's guys feeling they have the right to have a relationship with a woman.
Filip
Senior Member
Interesting.. Thank you for sharing this.
Big difference between you and what I've understood to be incels - you were hurt, twice, and decided to shut off (that is until you meet the right person, whenever that is, if ever - I can appreciate the sentiment). Incels seem to demand a relationship and blame society for their lack of one. For you, this seems like an introspective position you've taken and that gets my respect.
Speaking from experience, after my one long term relationship (~5 years) ended spectacularly, it took me a few years of voluntary celibacy to get my compass back in order and try again. I used that time for personal growth - which Lord knows I needed at that point in time. Chin up.
Northern Light
Superstar
I don't want to wander too far from incident itself in our discussions.
I have also already posted above that I don't think this incident is one that reveals a positive argument for legalizing the sex trade.
However, I would like to add at this juncture that I think your description of the desire for sex, which conveys and impression of sleaze and sin is not one with which I agree.
Its a natural desire with a tie to the desire to reproduce and to socialize (not be lonely) etc.
People seek to fulfill that in different ways, in relationships both short and long term.
I don't think women (or men) in the sex trade should be looked down upon, nor seen as victims, IF they entered the trade as consenting adults, under no duress.
(that this is too often not the case is nothing I would dispute, and how one addresses that is a complex discussion best left to another thread)
Nor should men (or admittedly a very few women) who patronize the trade be automatically seen as sub-human, criminal or immoral, merely because many of us would not make the same choice.
That is not a position in favour of, or against, outright legalization, though in general my leanings run towards greater freedom than less; but instead a its a position that suggests harsh judgment should be
reserved for those who cause harm to others, knowingly and willfully.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Toronto's bus shelter don't give much resistance to any collision or incident. They tend to come apart, and don't stop any vehicle that hits them. Seen photos of collisions where even a compact car goes through them. Couldn't they, at the very least, make the bus shelter corner pillars more like bollards to actually help to stop the vehicle?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
We could certainly make our sidewalk furniture and fittings more impact resistant, with unobtrusive but credible vehicular barriers to someone intentionally driving down the otherwise bowling alley-like sidewalk.
When I watch the video of the takedown I am surprised by the lack of situational awareness of the public. Here's a police car with its sirens going, a police officer with his gun point and shouting commands, a smashed up van on the sidewalk and a guy pretending to draw, and you're just wandering past, looking around like a sheeple? In my job in international biz I've learned to always be aware of my surroundings, which has saved me from pick pocketing gypsies in the Croatia to scammers in Shenzhen. Of course you can't expect to be prepared for a speeding van coming at you, but if you walk out of your office building and there's a cop about to open fire, maybe step back?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
To be fair, it is Toronto, not Shenzhen - and NYCC isn't where you'd think insanity of this sort will happen.
AoD
AoD
animatronic
Senior Member
I don’t think that’s an indication people are clueless. I’ve driven past cops with their guns out doing an arrest, and just kept driving. There isn’t really time to process anything, and even with a gun drawn there aren’t any shots fired 99% of the time. Nobody had any idea what was going on up the street, so no reason to be paying attention.
Most people don’t even know how many numbers are on the face of the wristwatch they wear every day.