afransen
Senior Member
I think that's a Hamilton thing. Hamilton would be another Regina if it hadn't been plunked next to Toronto. As it is, it is quite overshadowed.
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CDL.TO
Moderator
A common idea seems to be that Hamilton would have been Canada's alpha city if not for some horrible things Toronto did to steal it from their rightful grasp.
Me, I just question how the mountain effected its ability to act as a railway and transportation hub.
Me, I just question how the mountain effected its ability to act as a railway and transportation hub.
CDL.TO
Moderator
One of the most entertaining things I've read in a while. Should be required reading for all UT members. Detailing how Toronto has been hateworthy for millenia.
Argos (and Torontonians) suck: A serious research paper
Select quotes:
"To the north and east of the Princess Point [Hamilton] settlement however, things were not nearly so rosy. What we now call “downtown Toronto†was a gigantic swamp, full of pestilence and disease. ... In a trick that would characterize it as a region well into the future, the proto-Torontonians would hang out in their swamp and wait to enrich themselves on the swag passing through from places like proto-Montreal and proto-Hamilton."
"Other early European explorers in the region such as the missionaries of the Sulpician Order attempted to settle in Toronto as early as 1669, but detested the place so much they wrote letters to their headquarters back in Paris begging to be relieved of duty. Although the Sulpicians considered suffering to be a virtue, forced habitation in Toronto was too cruel even for them."
"LaSalle was so frightened at the prospect of becoming ice-bound and getting stuck in Toronto all winter that he re-embarked straight into the eye of the continuing storms in order to get away, whereupon he sought out the greater utility and beauty of the Hamilton region’s sheltered shorelines"
"Almost 100 years before the first steel plants would appear in the region, the distinction between the multicultural, hands-on, hard working people of Hamilton and the elitist, delicate, whitebread constituents of Toronto was already apparent."
"Allan MacNab, a power-hungry Torontonian, was installed as the puppet governor of Hamilton, whereupon he built and operated the manor house “Dundurn Castle†with Hamiltonian slave labour, and then used it as a base of operations to hunt down reformers so they could be jailed and/or hanged in Hogtown. Meanwhile, as if local totalitarian control was not enough, the Toronto dictatorship also installed a puppet regime in Quebec City known as the “Chateau Clique,†a development that would have a profoundly negative effect on future ethnic relations in Canada."
"Hamilton municipal planners came up with the marvelous idea of ringing the northern border facing Toronto with a large number of steel mills in order to camouflage the city’s attractive features from the hungry eyes of Hogtown land speculators."
Argos (and Torontonians) suck: A serious research paper
Select quotes:
"To the north and east of the Princess Point [Hamilton] settlement however, things were not nearly so rosy. What we now call “downtown Toronto†was a gigantic swamp, full of pestilence and disease. ... In a trick that would characterize it as a region well into the future, the proto-Torontonians would hang out in their swamp and wait to enrich themselves on the swag passing through from places like proto-Montreal and proto-Hamilton."
"Other early European explorers in the region such as the missionaries of the Sulpician Order attempted to settle in Toronto as early as 1669, but detested the place so much they wrote letters to their headquarters back in Paris begging to be relieved of duty. Although the Sulpicians considered suffering to be a virtue, forced habitation in Toronto was too cruel even for them."
"LaSalle was so frightened at the prospect of becoming ice-bound and getting stuck in Toronto all winter that he re-embarked straight into the eye of the continuing storms in order to get away, whereupon he sought out the greater utility and beauty of the Hamilton region’s sheltered shorelines"
"Almost 100 years before the first steel plants would appear in the region, the distinction between the multicultural, hands-on, hard working people of Hamilton and the elitist, delicate, whitebread constituents of Toronto was already apparent."
"Allan MacNab, a power-hungry Torontonian, was installed as the puppet governor of Hamilton, whereupon he built and operated the manor house “Dundurn Castle†with Hamiltonian slave labour, and then used it as a base of operations to hunt down reformers so they could be jailed and/or hanged in Hogtown. Meanwhile, as if local totalitarian control was not enough, the Toronto dictatorship also installed a puppet regime in Quebec City known as the “Chateau Clique,†a development that would have a profoundly negative effect on future ethnic relations in Canada."
"Hamilton municipal planners came up with the marvelous idea of ringing the northern border facing Toronto with a large number of steel mills in order to camouflage the city’s attractive features from the hungry eyes of Hogtown land speculators."
ShonTron
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Hamilton boosterists back in the day did think they could compete with Toronto to be the great city of Lake Ontario. While Toronto had a railway first (to Aurora, then Barrie and Collingwood) , Hamilton had the first long-distance railway (the Great Western, connecting Buffalo with Detroit), and built a "branch line" to Toronto. But building any more railways was a challenge - Toronto had the bigger natural hinterland, had the Grand Trunk built connecting it with Montreal and Chicago (and the Montreal based GT bought the Hamilton-based GW), and the mountain made it harder to build those railways.
For a while, Hamilton and Dundas were rivals. Dundas even built a canal to link its city with the lake, but had poor rail connections. Guess who won that one. Are Dundasians bitter at Hamiltonians?
unimaginative2
Senior Member
"Are Dundasians bitter at Hamiltonians?"
Yes, oh yes!
Seriously, though, that's a great analysis. I think that Hamilton has a marginally better location, and much more dramatic natural site than Toronto, but Toronto definitely has a much bigger hinterland and more buildable land. Hamilton at 6 million people would be a very cool sight, though.
Yes, oh yes!
Seriously, though, that's a great analysis. I think that Hamilton has a marginally better location, and much more dramatic natural site than Toronto, but Toronto definitely has a much bigger hinterland and more buildable land. Hamilton at 6 million people would be a very cool sight, though.
Tewder
Senior Member
Actually, yes they are. When Hamilton expanded and amalgamated with several of the surrounding historic communities there was much resentment. Maybe it's a Canadian trait that we all hate each other???
CDL.TO
Moderator
There was a guest article in Sunday's Sun Comment section by one of the guys behind the movie. Provided some extra insight in his experiences making this movie and some comments I think most of us would agree with about Toronto needing to figure out what its own identity is before things can get better. "We need to feel comfortable with ourselves before others will fell comfortable with us" sort of thing.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be online.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be online.
I always thought St Catharines (or maybe Port Colborne) could have been the largest city in the entire midwest. As large if not larger then even Chicago if not for one thing - we won the war of 1812.
Imagine if the US had won the war. There would have been no need for the Erie Canal. The Welland Canal would have been the way to the west. This would have made St Catharines the gateway to the west. Buffalo would have been a backwater to this day.
Then came the railways. The shortest route to Detroit and Chicago from NYC is actually through Ontario. Being a shipping hub already, St Catharines would have been the logical place for the railways to base their operations.
St Catharines would also been a strong central hub for many of the resource based industries in Ontario, New York and Pennsylvania such as mining, forestry and agriculture. The discovery of oil in Pennsylvania would have been close enough to ensure this industry would also have grown here. Steel industries that set up in Buffalo because of the transport routes would have settled here instead. Then with the coming of electricity (hello Niagara Falls) more and more heavy industry would have settled here. With all of this industry and money located here a strong financial sector would have developed. Stock markets and banks as large as anything seen in Toronto or Chicago today would have developed.
A city of 6 million or much more would have developed here. One that would have stretched from St Catharines to Port Colborne, Niagara Falls to god knows how far west. If only we hadn't won the war.
campre
New Member
flar
Active Member
There were actually plans to build a large city on the Niagara Peninsula, I forget what it was supposed to be called. It was to be located near the industries at Nanticoke. All that ended up being built were a few 4 lane intersections and a few houses. Maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about?
ShonTron
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I do! It's called Townsend, just northwest of Jarvis. It is interesting to take a drive through for sure.
flar
Active Member
Back on topic...
Growing up in southwestern Ontario, "Torontonian" was a derogatory term, usually mispronounced in contempt. I remember going to Toronto with a group of people from down there and while in the city they constantly made negative comments, like "How can people live with such a small yard", "there are no houses", "everybody's pushy", "white people are a minority" and "no one says hello to each other".
EDIT: Townsend! thanks.
Growing up in southwestern Ontario, "Torontonian" was a derogatory term, usually mispronounced in contempt. I remember going to Toronto with a group of people from down there and while in the city they constantly made negative comments, like "How can people live with such a small yard", "there are no houses", "everybody's pushy", "white people are a minority" and "no one says hello to each other".
EDIT: Townsend! thanks.
It seems that 'small-mindedness' is a given that is missing from the list of the Seven Wonders of Canada now being voted on at the CBC's website.
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ShonTron
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Surprised no one yet mentioned Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie'sThe Toronto Song.
Lyrics excerpt:
"I hate the Skydome and the CN Tower too,
I hate Nathan Phillips square and the Ontario Zoo,
The rent's too high, the air's unclean,
The beaches are dirty and the people are mean,
And the women are big and the men are dumb,
And the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum!
The water is polluted and their mayor's a dork,
They dress real bad and they think they're New York,
In Toronto, Ontario-o-o"
Lyrics excerpt:
"I hate the Skydome and the CN Tower too,
I hate Nathan Phillips square and the Ontario Zoo,
The rent's too high, the air's unclean,
The beaches are dirty and the people are mean,
And the women are big and the men are dumb,
And the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum!
The water is polluted and their mayor's a dork,
They dress real bad and they think they're New York,
In Toronto, Ontario-o-o"
Mongo
Senior Member
I remember that! There was a story in Canadian Geographic sometime in the mid-1970s about the Nanticoke steel plant, which talked a bit about the planned city to be built nearby. For years after reading about it, I would occasionally wonder what was going on with it.
Bill