Neptis' Review of Metrolinx's Big Move

[sixrings]

It would be expected that there would be more Caribbean people coming from the west of the station and Jews coming from the east of the station.

That's a fact not a hypothesis.

 

[salsa]

I live between bathurst and Eglinton west. I know the area which is why I'm confident that oakwood would see a lot of riders. Bathurst on the other hand are all benz suv owners. I'm less confident there despite thinking because is a major road it needs a stop.

Have you ever seen the crowds on the Bathurst bus? Like with at any other subway station, most riders arrive by bus, not by foot.

 

[ShonTron]

Have you ever seen the crowds on the Bathurst bus? Like with at any other subway station, most riders arrive by bus, not by foot.

Indeed. That said, you don't have to go very far north (two blocks) to find a cluster of mid and high rise rental buildings.

 

[Palma]

Have you ever seen the crowds on the Bathurst bus? Like with at any other subway station, most riders arrive by bus, not by foot.

Bloor and Bathurst yes. How many get on at lawrence and Bathurst to go south

 

[TOareaFan]

Bloor and Bathurst yes. How many get on at lawrence and Bathurst to go south

If we are trying to determine how many people board a bus at Lawrence and Bathurst to head to a subway/RT you have to factor in that they would be 1.2km bus ride from Lawrence West.....a 2.3km bus ride from Lawrence and a 2.1km bus ride from Bathurst/Eglinton....so how many of them go south would depend on ultimate destination and bus schedules...but it would be a fractured ridership regardless.

 

[WislaHD]

Perhaps instead of saying "this line has seemingly been designed by NIMBYs" I should have said "this line has seemingly been designed by self-interested local residents who only care about how this line can serve them, even if it reduces the experience for everyone else (including them, unknowingly) in the aggregate" but that would've been too long.

The Neptis report (and seemingly you) treats the Eglinton line as only a means to funnel people to the Yonge line as quickly as possible. The Eglinton line with have more than one functionality as inhabitants of the central portion of the line (myself included) will treat the line as part of their community, as a means to reach local amenities, access local shopping areas and to travel seamlessly across Midtown without a car. It will be the catalyst for even greater densification, construction and commercial expansion through the entire central stretch of Eglinton, and not just at specific nodes along Eglinton ala the Sheppard line. This is what this part of the city hopes to realize in the long-term and why many 'self-serving local residents' have taken interest in this project. Inhabitants of Scarborough/Etobicoke won't care if whether Midtown realizes its potential or not, especially when it entails a lifestyle foreign to suburbia and marginally longer commute to Yonge-Eglinton station.

I'm expecting we will come back to this debate a lot more heavily once planning of the DRL is underway, with people wanting quicker access to Union/King/St. Andrews from the Bloor line, and people who want more stations along the DRL.

 

[ShonTron]

I'm expecting we will come back to this debate a lot more heavily once planning of the DRL is underway, with people wanting quicker access to Union/King/St. Andrews from the Bloor line, and people who want more stations along the DRL.

The DRL alignment from Pape or Donlands probably only lends itself to only four stations or so between Danforth and Downtown especially as it doesn't directly replace a surface transit route: (These locations are approximate) Carlaw/Gerrard, Queen/Broadview, Parliament/Distillery District/Corktown and Sherbourne/Jarvis/Market. That reduces the number of stops from 10 or 11 + direct subway transfer to 4 + direct subway transfer to get to the Financial District from Danforth. To the north of Danforth, I'd only set up stops at Cosburn, Thorncliffe Park, Don Mills/Overlea area and Eglinton/Don Mills.

I think Eglinton-Crosstown is a bit more of a local route than the DRL should be.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The Neptis report (and seemingly you) treats the Eglinton line as only a means to funnel people to the Yonge line as quickly as possible. The Eglinton line with have more than one functionality as inhabitants of the central portion of the line (myself included) will treat the line as part of their community, as a means to reach local amenities, access local shopping areas and to travel seamlessly across Midtown without a car. It will be the catalyst for even greater densification, construction and commercial expansion through the entire central stretch of Eglinton, and not just at specific nodes along Eglinton ala the Sheppard line. This is what this part of the city hopes to realize in the long-term and why many 'self-serving local residents' have taken interest in this project.

No, I don't treat the Eglinton Crosstown merely as a line to funnel passengers onto the YUS. I think the Eglinton-Crosstown should be a rapid transit line, and I think that certain stations should be reconsidered in terms of how much their benefits to locals are outweighed by their costs, both their economic costs and costs to the efficiency of the line's operation, as a whole.

I don't think you can justify $200 million underground stations at Oakwood, or one of Chaplin or Avenue Road. These are walk-on only stations (very little connection to surface routes) that only benefit the surrounding community, and these are communities that have neither the density nor will to densify to a point that will lead to a sustainable demand for the station. For the extra $400 million + annual operating costs, you can run a frequent, parallel bus service along Eglinton or even build a streetcar line to serve local trips and operate it for the forseeable future.

I live between bathurst and Eglinton west. I know the area which is why I'm confident that oakwood would see a lot of riders.

I'm confident that Oakwood would get quite a few riders, but whether the ridership is worth justifying building an underground station at that location is another thing. Oakwood is a mere 400 meters (10 minutes walking time for middle aged people) west of Eglinton West, a future rapid transit interchange and barely 500 m east of the future Dufferin station. Also, note the block spacing of the north south streets: anyone living midway between Marlee and Times on any one of Livingstone, Belgravia or Whitmore has an equal walking distance to Eglinton west as they would to Oakwood. Oakwood therefore only serves walk-on traffic for people who live south of Eglinton, west of Alameda, east of Glenholme, and maybe north of Eglinton in a 1-block strip along Times Rd. that extends halfway to Locksley and halfway to Marlee. The single family home neighbourhoods have zero redevelopment potential. Eglinton Avenue West has marginal redevelopment potential; even if all lots were redeveloped into high density condos, the walk-on traffic would not be enough to generate a sufficient level of demand. The 63 bus would be hindered if it terminated at Oakwood; it makes much more sense for it to travel to the interchange station at Eglinton West, which means that people at Oakwood and Eglinton wouldn't even lose local bus service.

 

[ehlow]

The Neptis report (and seemingly you) treats the Eglinton line as only a means to funnel people to the Yonge line as quickly as possible. The Eglinton line with have more than one functionality as inhabitants of the central portion of the line (myself included) will treat the line as part of their community, as a means to reach local amenities, access local shopping areas and to travel seamlessly across Midtown without a car. It will be the catalyst for even greater densification, construction and commercial expansion through the entire central stretch of Eglinton, and not just at specific nodes along Eglinton ala the Sheppard line. This is what this part of the city hopes to realize in the long-term and why many 'self-serving local residents' have taken interest in this project. Inhabitants of Scarborough/Etobicoke won't care if whether Midtown realizes its potential or not, especially when it entails a lifestyle foreign to suburbia and marginally longer commute to Yonge-Eglinton station.

I'm expecting we will come back to this debate a lot more heavily once planning of the DRL is underway, with people wanting quicker access to Union/King/St. Andrews from the Bloor line, and people who want more stations along the DRL.

Well said! We locals will be using this line every day, not just for getting to work, but other day to day trips too. I don't see anything wrong with people who live along Eglinton giving input into the project like everyone else.

 

[Electrify]

If any stop should be on the chopping block, it is Chaplin. While on paper Oakwood looks like it could go, the street itself benefits from mixed use and Caribbean culture. Chaplin on the other hand appears to be barely a collector road and seems like another Chester. Also note that there doesn't seem to be a stop between Mt. Pleasant and Bayview.

For the most part there really does need to be at least one stop between arterials in this city, they are too spaced out. Ironically if Glencarin was on the Yonge line rather than the Spadina end, it would be far more useful, as highway stretches of rapid transit are where it should run with fewer stops. For obvious reasons.

Admittedly my condemning of Chaplin is based on paper assumptions. If it is one of the busier stops along the route, along with those in its vicinity then it should be kept.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If any stop should be on the chopping block, it is Chaplin. While on paper Oakwood looks like it could go, the street itself benefits from mixed use and Caribbean culture. Chaplin on the other hand appears to be barely a collector road and seems like another Chester. Also note that there doesn't seem to be a stop between Mt. Pleasant and Bayview.

For the most part there really does need to be at least one stop between arterials in this city, they are too spaced out. Ironically if Glencarin was on the Yonge line rather than the Spadina end, it would be far more useful, as highway stretches of rapid transit are where it should run with fewer stops. For obvious reasons.

Admittedly my condemning of Chaplin is based on paper assumptions. If it is one of the busier stops along the route, along with those in its vicinity then it should be kept.

Chaplin (see link) will have THREE entrances.

 

[WislaHD]

I don't think you can justify $200 million underground stations at Oakwood, or one of Chaplin or Avenue Road. These are walk-on only stations (very little connection to surface routes) that only benefit the surrounding community, and these are communities that have neither the density nor will to densify to a point that will lead to a sustainable demand for the station. For the extra $400 million + annual operating costs, you can run a frequent, parallel bus service along Eglinton or even build a streetcar line to serve local trips and operate it for the forseeable future.

Eglinton is one of Toronto's primary east-west routes and whether we like it or not it'll see significant automobile traffic. One of the benefits of building a subway here is that it will remove buses from Eglinton (typical morning rush hour rows of 6-7 buses stuck at intersections) and reduce traffic congestion.

Operating a parallel bus service (not mentioning a St. Clair-esque streetcar) defeats this gain. Especially since the current subway plan entails reducing a lane on Eglinton already.


I understand your monetary criticism on building an Oakwood, Chaplin and Avenue stations. I'd be willing to listen to a solution that involves private sector development and investment into these stations if such a solution was presented. However, the only rhetoric so far has been to simply remove these stations from the line altogether.

Leslie station should be scrapped altogether.

The DRL alignment from Pape or Donlands probably only lends itself to only four stations or so between Danforth and Downtown especially as it doesn't directly replace a surface transit route: (These locations are approximate) Carlaw/Gerrard, Queen/Broadview, Parliament/Distillery District/Corktown and Sherbourne/Jarvis/Market. That reduces the number of stops from 10 or 11 + direct subway transfer to 4 + direct subway transfer to get to the Financial District from Danforth. To the north of Danforth, I'd only set up stops at Cosburn, Thorncliffe Park, Don Mills/Overlea area and Eglinton/Don Mills.

I think Eglinton-Crosstown is a bit more of a local route than the DRL should be.

I was thinking more on the western end of the DRL, towards Dufferin-Bloor or whatever route it takes. There is Spadina, Bathurst, Liberty Village, Dufferin, Dundas and Dufferin Mall along the way to Dufferin station. Assuming it takes the Dufferin route. All the proposal maps I've seen so far include only 4 stations between Dufferin Station and St. Andrew/Union.

I'd agree though, that the Eglinton-Crosstown is a more local route than the DRL.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The DRL will probably have an additional one, with queen/Carlaw and another at Gerrard.

East of st Andrew it would probably go something like Spadina Bathurst strachan Atlantic/dufferin, and be split off into multiple possible routes there.

 

[Electrify]

Eglinton is one of Toronto's primary east-west routes and whether we like it or not it'll see significant automobile traffic. One of the benefits of building a subway here is that it will remove buses from Eglinton (typical morning rush hour rows of 6-7 buses stuck at intersections) and reduce traffic congestion.

Operating a parallel bus service (not mentioning a St. Clair-esque streetcar) defeats this gain. Especially since the current subway plan entails reducing a lane on Eglinton already.

I am of the belief that unless finances are that tight (which admittedly they usually are), a parallel bus service should be offered regardless. They serve two different markets: one is for travel throughout the city area, while the other is for the neighbourhood. Even on Bloor with two intermediate stops per concession block, playing with Google Maps will find trips where a bus could provide a much faster overall trip than the the subway.

My $0.02 cents.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The problem with Oakwood, Chaplin, Leslie, Avenue is that they will be like Castle frank. Low Ridership after 3 years. There is nothing wrong with running the 61 to Y+E when they reopen the bus terminal. Leslie should not have a stop at all either, it's just creating a traffic mess. I think part of the criticism of Eglinton is the lack of extension. Eglinton is great if you live in the former city of york or old Toronto. I think if Eglinton West was being build right now people would have the same criticisms of stops like Scarlett Road for example.