MoveOntario 2020

[Disparishun]

The original poster was right - Vaughan and Markham did a joint study that established max densities for the heritage district. Even with bonussing a top building height would be 5 stories and, on the Markham side, there is a 12-metre height limit. There WILL be some condos and other development in that area if a subway goes in, but nothing huge.

Didn't Vaughan refuse an application for a 12 or so (can't remember) storey seniors residence to replace the plaza on the west side of Yonge, north of Arnold? I think some of the objections to that application involved siting the entrance/exit on Arnold rather than Yonge, but still.

Also, if I recall right, most of the actually-existing Old Thornhill stuff is on the Markham side, no? The Vaughan side is mostly monster homes on former bungalow lots.

I expect the main justification for Clark would be the pre-existing condos and the YRT, Brampton and other busses that cut through (whereas no busses go on Helen Ave., for example).

Brampton? Other buses? The 77 runs on Centre, but on Clark I don't know of much apart from the 5 and maybe the 23 Thornhill Woods for a bit (Hilda to the Promenade) and the VIVA, etc. stop at Yonge.

I think Clark is the right place for a subway, as it is already the site of some density -- and could stand a lot more, especially on the Markham side -- along with, on the Vaughan side, the Garnet arena/community centre and Dufferin/Clark community centres, high schools, etc., and of course acting as the main artery for all the housing developments off there, some of which are quite dense by suburban standards (i.e. off Yorkhill).

But bus traffic is so far a bit limited (notwithstanding access from Clark to the Promenade "terminal").

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The 77 can easily run down Clark via Bathurst...that's if the route still exists after the Spadina line is extended.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Didn't Vaughan refuse an application for a 12 or so (can't remember) storey seniors residence to replace the plaza on the west side of Yonge, north of Arnold? I think some of the objections to that application involved siting the entrance/exit on Arnold rather than Yonge, but still.

Also, if I recall right, most of the actually-existing Old Thornhill stuff is on the Markham side, no? The Vaughan side is mostly monster homes on former bungalow lots.

That sounds alot like parts of Toronto that are on the direct radar of the subway network. I'm sure the homes on Bloor St will never be razed for condos and yet we've got a bonafide subway there with even a feeeder route and some density via a few high rises within walking distance. Centre-John certainly certainly sounds familiar to this as well.

Brampton? Other buses? The 77 runs on Centre, but on Clark I don't know of much apart from the 5 and maybe the 23 Thornhill Woods for a bit (Hilda to the Promenade) and the VIVA, etc. stop at Yonge.

But these don't have to diverted south to a Clark Stn. Scarberian's swearing up and down that Clark's so vital yet the only way to keep daily usage high is seemingly to take people miles out of their way to be its feeder routes. I'd think that if Clark's going to preform so well notwithstanding feeder buses, it should be proven by sending buses to Centre-John instead.

I think Clark is the right place for a subway, as it is already the site of some density -- and could stand a lot more, especially on the Markham side -- along with, on the Vaughan side, the Garnet arena/community centre and Dufferin/Clark community centres, high schools, etc., and of course acting as the main artery for all the housing developments off there, some of which are quite dense by suburban standards (i.e. off Yorkhill). But bus traffic is so far a bit limited (notwithstanding access from Clark to the Promenade "terminal").

I agree, Clark should exist but so should Centre-John. Arterial roads that extend to Halton and 9th Line should have a place in their own alignment to terminate. There's no guarantee everyone coming in from the west will get off at VCC Stn. Some will certainly want Yonge St still.

The 77 can easily run down Clark via Bathurst...that's if the route still exists after the Spadina line is extended.

But then that would subtract service from Bathurst to Yonge wouldn't it? I wonder what your bias is against Centre-John when obviously a Helen stop is far removed from anywhere even Royal Orchard which itself only extends to Bayview.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But then that would subtract service from Bathurst to Yonge wouldn't it?...A Helen stop is far removed from anywhere even Royal Orchard which itself only extends to Bayview.

Almost all of the routes in southern York Region will be rerouted when both subways are extended...it's too early to tell what'll happen to all these <2000 ride-a-day routes. The 3/3B, if it continues to run along both Royal Orchard and Centre, can pick up the slack of a few extra hundred rides a day.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the "Helen" stop being at Helen...the same attachment spells Clark wrong and suggests that each station will cost $150 million to build.

 

[MisterF]

Yes! That's what people who bash the "Sorbara Line" fail to understand.
Everyone thinks you build highrises and then find a way to get a subway there because that's all they've known.
"There's nothing up there in Vaughan!" they cry.
"It's a line to nowhere!"

Wait and see.

The opposition to that line isn't so much that subway line shouldn't go there at all, more that there are plenty of areas that are already dense, with already crowded and slow bus and streetcar routes that are far more deserving of rapid transit. Areas of existing high density and ridership should be served with rapid transit before areas where density might conceivably someday get built.

 

[unimaginative2]

But these don't have to diverted south to a Clark Stn. Scarberian's swearing up and down that Clark's so vital yet the only way to keep daily usage high is seemingly to take people miles out of their way to be its feeder routes. I'd think that if Clark's going to preform so well notwithstanding feeder buses, it should be proven by sending buses to Centre-John instead.

Dentrobate. Seriously.

As for the feeder routes, how is it taking anybody out of their way? If they're transfering to the subway, they're going south anyway. It doesn't really matter whether a couple hundred metres of that trip south is on a bus or on a train. For the many people at Promenade Mall and other spots between Clark and Centre, going north to a stop at Centre, only to go back south again on the subway, would actually be taking people out of their way.

You just can't have stops everywhere on a route that goes that far out into the suburbs. If the Yonge subway had stops at every significant street, it would take an hour to get downtown. I'd say Echo Park could use a stop long before Clark and Centre need two stops.

But then that would subtract service from Bathurst to Yonge wouldn't it? I wonder what your bias is against Centre-John when obviously a Helen stop is far removed from anywhere even Royal Orchard which itself only extends to Bayview.

Obviously the "Helen" stop should be at Royal Orchard. Even at Helen, it's only a block or two away.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Here we go!

The VIA train, in 1981, made the following stops:

Havelock
Norwood (F)
Indian River (F)
Peterboro
Cavan (F)
Draneol (F)
Manvers (F)
Pontypool (F)
Burketon (F)
Myrtle (F)
Dagmar (F)
Claremont (F)
Locust Hill (F)
Agincourt
Leaside
Toronto (Union)

Sean,

1. I think the station was actually Dranoel, which I remember because it's 'Leonard' backwards.

2. The trip took closer to 2.5-3 hours, which made it uncompetitive against any form of bus trip to Toronto at any hour, even though it took almost the shortest route between the two cities.

3. I took the trip with my parents when I was seven years old, and spent most of the ride up front chatting the engineer's ear off to the point where he missed picking passengers up in Pontypool and had to temporarily reverse his Budd railcar.

The track is in very poor shape and would have to be considerably upgraded. Growing up in Peterborough, I know that many of those tracks were stamped in 1909.

---

Resurrecting the rail line between Peterborough and Port Hope is wildly audacious! It might involve reconstructing the causeway across Rice Lake.

 

[MisterF]

Resurrecting the rail line between Peterborough and Port Hope is wildly audacious! It might involve reconstructing the causeway across Rice Lake.

Ah yes, the Rice Lake bridge. It was a bridge and not a causeway, and it collapsed a grand total of six years after it was built. The footings are still there, just under the surface, destroying boat propellors when people have no idea it exists. Marinas in that area make a killing! That line was between Peterborough and Cobourg, the one to Port Hope didn't cross Rice Lake at all.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Dentrobate. Seriously.

You just can't have stops everywhere on a route that goes that far out into the suburbs. If the Yonge subway had stops at every significant street, it would take an hour to get downtown. I'd say Echo Park could use a stop long before Clark and Centre need two stops.

Obviously the "Helen" stop should be at Royal Orchard. Even at Helen, it's only a block or two away.

Okay, I can take a hint. My hyperbole aside, a km separates Clark from Centre which is a large gap and despite buses best efforts it can't achive comparative speeds to the subway. A straight path to Yonge St sounds faster, without turning onto Promenade then Bathurst then Clark on which sounds like there's more density hence more passenger pick-up/drop-off.

I never considered Clark expendible (although if flanked by stations reaching as close as Doncaster and John, it's sort of redundant). Helen however is north of Bay Thorn well to the north of Royal Orchard, so unless route 3 is rerouted along Bay Thorn, the only surface route Helen would interface is 99 Yonge South.

 

[nfitz]

I had no idea the old Peterborough VIA line had so many stations. A lot of those could definitely be eliminated.

As indicated, most of them were flagstops.

 

[ShonTron]

Sean,

1. I think the station was actually Dranoel, which I remember because it's 'Leonard' backwards.

---

Resurrecting the rail line between Peterborough and Port Hope is wildly audacious! It might involve reconstructing the causeway across Rice Lake.

I know about Dranoel. It was a tpyo. Dranoel was the junction of the CP spur to Lindsay (and at one point to Port McNicoll, and a branch to Bobcaygeon).

Retspih Kcud, the line I was referring to was the CN Millbrook Sub that lasted until about 1960 between Port Hope and Millbrook, a little later between Peterboro (railway spelling) and Millbrook. The causeway was used by the Cobourg and Peterborough and abandoned in the 1860s!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A straight path to Yonge St sounds faster, without turning onto Promenade then Bathurst then Clark on which sounds like there's more density hence more passenger pick-up/drop-off.

And higher ridership would be a bad thing?

The Helen station won't be at Helen - they called it Helen on the attachment because Helen is halfway between Centre and the 407 (a silly name when the Viva stop is at Royal Orchard). There won't be a station at Doncaster, it'll obviously go at Steeles.

 

[RedRocket191]

Back to the Peterborough-Oshawa connection:

It would be useless unless they improve local bus service to the industrial areas in Oshawa. What's the sense in taking the train to Oshawa if you can't get relatively close to your workplace?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

And higher ridership would be a bad thing?

If it slows down the commutes of long-range passengers than yes. Corridors shedwatering multiple routes shouldn't have to have every local bus serve every local stop. Again with my Eglinton example, if you're in need of Eglinton local why hold up riders that genuinely want the part of the route that branches off (51, 56, 100, 103) when you can await the 34 bus? It's the same principle here. Between all that stalling and right/left turning and traffic lights, etc. by the time the 77 arrives at Clark, people would already have been on the subway at Yonge/Centre unencumbered.

Wherever the second the second Thornhill stop goes (Helen, Bay Thorn or Royal Orchard) it still appears to have less development potential than around John Street where there's a few strip malls that can be replaced by high-rises if need be in the future. If the immediate locale of several Toronto subway stops (Lawrence, Rosedale, High Park, Spadina [YUS]) can be surrounded by unchangable affluence yet have density 5 mins down the road, I'm sure Thornhill @ Centre-John can too.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If it slows down the commutes of long-range passengers than yes.

Wherever the second the second Thornhill stop goes (Helen, Bay Thorn or Royal Orchard) it still appears to have less development potential than around John Street where there's a few strip malls that can be replaced by high-rises if need be in the future.

The whole point of these suburban transit projects is to eliminate the need for buses from Brampton to run along streets like Centre for dozens of km. The 77 won't continue on east of Jane Street once the Spadina line's built, and if it does, only 500 people will take it.

The Centre/John area won't be getting any high-rises...the whole area's included in the heritage zone.