MoveOntario 2020

[DENTROBATE54]

Routes 3 and 77 combined have a miniscule ridership of less than 4,000 per day...even if we assume they all transfer to the Yonge line (they don't/won't), these precious few riders can stay on the bus for about 1km and go to Clark station, adding a bit of local service to Olde Thornhill's mansions. Oh, but it's on a concession...how can we possibly not have a stop there! Present day land use at Centre is also the future land use, except for a few infill 3 storey buildings - the mansions and heritage streetscape will not be slaughtered and paved over with Tridel. If people in Richmond Hill want a trip downtown that doesn't stop, they can take the GO train that's already right there.

The "undevelopable" land to the north of Holy Cross has actually seen a large proposal for condos and more: http://www.markham.ca/markham/ccbs/...nt/April 4/Paclang Holdings Inc. attach 3.pdf

Cemeteries make great neighbours. Permanently unobstructed views, green space for jogging or park use...and they're quiet.

You still haven't answered my question: out of Helen and John-Centre which station is more expendible? Then again I'm preaching to the choir here, you probably favor vast, sprawling stations in middle-of-nowhere locales (Kennedy, Warden, Kipling, Wilson, Downsview) with marginal density surrounded it with which to thrive.

By your logic there'd be no Royal York, Old Mill, Runnymede, High Park, Christie, Castle Frank, Woodbine, Glencairn, St Clair West, Spadina (YUS), Rosedale, Summerhill, Davisville or Lawrence stations either because one block over you're in affluent, old-fashioned, undevelopable residential areas that'll always be just that and hence not worthy of subway stops.

Do you think just because nothing major's at a concession road it's not wothy of a stop when it's collectively apart of a larger chain? Take York Mills for instance, swathy Hogg's Hollow and hilltop exuberant car-owners yet indespensible for the 95, 96 and several other TTC/GO routes.

If you look beyond the limited catchment surrounding Clark/Yonge, you'd see between Centre St, John St (and Royal Orchard if a bus terminus's built in the vinicity) tens of 000s, NOT <4000, would use a station with exits facing John and Centre Streets. It's simple logic. In comparison, Helen is the ultimate white elephant that you may as well build in Rouge Park, lol .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Centre is expendable...I thought I've made that exceedingly obvious.

77's ridership should be taken into context.

Calling it miniscule ignores the fact that it is a lifeline for Brampton and Vaughan.

All planning has to be done in context or you'll end up with sprawl downtown or the Burj Dubai in Havelock.

The context is that a Brampton lifeline hinging on the 77's connection to Centre station and only to Centre station is astronomically trivial in the grand scheme of things - a grand scheme that includes Acceleride and Viva and all kinds of GO improvements. There'd be nothing stopping Bramptonites and Vaughaners from transferring to the Spadina line instead of Yonge line...that's what the Spadina extension is for.

 

[Chuck]

I would be in favour of Finch-Cummer-Steeles-Clark-Centre-RHC. Clark and Centre are equally useful, Clark because of its intensification potential, and Centre because of its regional significance.

VIVA purple (west of Yonge) makes that silly diversion north on Bathurst, then east on Highway 7 to Yonge. Makes sense today, but with a subway station at Yonge and Centre, VIVA purple could be split in half, with west of Yonge and Brampton buses feeding Yonge and Centre, and east of Yonge buses serving Yonge and 7.

 

[JasonParis]

The context is that a Brampton lifeline hinging on the 77's connection to Centre station and only to Centre station is astronomically trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Not that many Bramptonites take the 77 all the way to Finch. It's exceedingly long (albeit the cheapest way to the subway). It's more of an additional Queen Street service that also plays the role of serving Vaughan and the subway. In the grand scheme of things it would be hardly missed once a connection to Downsview is available.

 

[ShonTron]

I figure once Acceleride is up within 2 years, the 77 would lose most of its purpose except as a local route. I could even imagine the 77 split into Brampton and York Region routes once Acceleride facilitates that one seat ride to York U/Subway. BT even has their eye on Viva Orange.

 

[doady]

It's not likw the 77's ridership is that high anyways... route 1 has the highest ridership in Brampton by far,

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I would be in favour of Finch-Cummer-Steeles-Clark-Centre-RHC. Clark and Centre are equally useful, Clark because of its intensification potential, and Centre because of its regional significance.

Amen. For the sake of five condos and three stoney mansions we're going to play fast and loose with subway locations ?!? The brain trust needs to realize that no matter what YR would still get three stations (Clark, Helen? and RHC--OR--Clark, John-Centre and RHC).

The latter makes so much more sense, and if not for Woodbridge/Brampton than certainly for everywhere east of VCC like Concord and the Promenade and a sizable density along Centre east of Bathurst. YR obviously isn't recording the actual daily ridership of the 77 as every time I've rode on it it was full to overcrowded pick-up/drop-offing a zillion times.

Now lets see one more time: Build silly one-time pay-off condos at Helen (where exactly I don't see it) that not even 500 people a day will use. Or realize the area from Elgin through John up to Centre St is a glaring commercial purple in maps that would generate a Broadview-size daily use between roughly 10, 000 walk-ins (even Royal Orcharders will walk it down because it's the direction of downtown Toronto) plus the high yield of routes 2, 3 and 77.

Clark Boulevard can't possibly accomdate a bus terminus to house those routes as land's scarce and occuring on a steep slope. At best it's own bus will stop in front of the subway entrance a la Christie and be gone.

Not that many Bramptonites take the 77 all the way to Finch.

I know, I've tried it. I think it took me two hours once to get from downtown Brampton to Finch and most of that duration was on the 77. Since then I've gotten off at either Martin Grove or Kipling and await the VIVA Orange. Then again using routes 52, 11 and 191 is even faster.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I would be in favour of Finch-Cummer-Steeles-Clark-Centre-RHC. Clark and Centre are equally useful, Clark because of its intensification potential, and Centre because of its regional significance.

VIVA purple (west of Yonge) makes that silly diversion north on Bathurst, then east on Highway 7 to Yonge. Makes sense today, but with a subway station at Yonge and Centre, VIVA purple could be split in half, with west of Yonge and Brampton buses feeding Yonge and Centre, and east of Yonge buses serving Yonge and 7.

There isn't a lick of regional significance at Centre. Having a continuous line along #7 (this is in addition to improved 407 GO bus service) is infinitely more useful in the long run than a purely local service route with a few hundred riders funnelling into Centre instead of Clark, an ungodly 1km away. Not that Viva Purple is even a factor...what's Viva Purple's ridership between York U and Langstaff, anyway, like 1000 a day? Might as well have Viva Purple run down Bathurst and along Clark: there's a lot more people there! Soon, no one from Vaughan or Brampton at all will be taking #7 to access the subway.

Not that many Bramptonites take the 77 all the way to Finch. It's exceedingly long (albeit the cheapest way to the subway). It's more of an additional Queen Street service that also plays the role of serving Vaughan and the subway. In the grand scheme of things it would be hardly missed once a connection to Downsview is available.

Exactly...and once the Spadina line is extended to Jane & 7, the 77 may even terminate there.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

There isn't a lick of regional significance at Centre. Having a continuous line along #7 (this is in addition to improved 407 GO bus service) is infinitely more useful in the long run than a purely local service route with a few hundred riders funnelling into Centre instead of Clark, an ungodly 1km away.

Exactly...and once the Spadina line is extended to Jane & 7, the 77 may even terminate there.

And what about John Street? Obviously a station at Centre would encompass John as well, an area with alot of streetfront density, even a mall or two.

I'll bring this up again, does York Mills look like the ldeal place to put a subway stop? If not, pray tell why is it there? If we're going to be so narrow-minded to assume the fact that parklands and the aristocracy immedaiately surround a subway location so automatically it will fail, we may have well not built any subways in any affluent neighborhood from the onset .

Yes, everywhere west of the 400 will likely get off at Vaughan Corporate Centre but that still leaves a glaring 4 concession gap of bus service. Everyday developers are filling in Hwy 7 with condos, office clusters and big-box. It's only a matter of time before that area is overflowing with transit riders that'll need a Centre Street stop. Do you think they'll be better accomodated in the Holy Cross Cemetary bus terminal that a Helen Stn will afford?

Think for Pete's sake, Helen is useless and building a Centre-John station in no way threatens the validity of Clark. Clark has no available land with which to accomodate several bus routes. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reasons why both Clark and Centre-John cannot exist, the latter would be of greater benefit to Royal Orchard because residents would have to walk it down several blocks from Helen.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

John doesn't even have a bus.

 

[Chuck]

Love all this discussion about the neighbourhood I grew up in!

John actually does have a bus, however it diverts south a bit before Yonge in order to serve the dying commercial strip on Doncaster, which is mostly within walking distance of Yonge St. anyway. The John bus, which at one point was the second busiest Markham Transit route, could easily continue to the John/Centre St. station.

Also remember that when the placement of subway stations is considered, planners anticipate future condition rather than just the present. That's why Bessarion Station was built, and why NYCC station was roughed in 35 years ago. Between the Yonge and Steeles, Thornhill, and Langstaff studies initiated mostly by Markham, NYCC will eventually be a 10km strip stretching from the 401 to the 407, though north of Steeles the buildings may be a bit shorter. Both the Clark and Centre St. stations will be key to handling this extra traffic.

As for Royal Orchard, it's got a bus route that runs fairly often (probably more often when the subway opens) to Yonge and Centre. Or, Centre St. is a 10 minute walk at a slow pace to the south. If Eglinton-Lawrence can get by with no midblock stations, one certainly isn't needed between Centre and 7. May not be a bad idea to rough one in though, just in case.

I also hope that the subway doesn't veer off to the east at Highway 7 just to connect to a poorly used parallel GO line. Better to keep it due north on Yonge.

 

[RedRocket191]

I also hope that the subway doesn't veer off to the east at Highway 7 just to connect to a poorly used parallel GO line. Better to keep it due north on Yonge.

I think that it should connect to Richmond Hill Centre Terminal. There's no sense rebuilding the terminal across the parking lot. It can veer off at the 407 and be back under Yonge Street by the time it gets to High Tech Road.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Uh, it makes a million times more sense to rebuild a concrete pad than to divert a subway line. But this is only relevant if the Yonge line's going to be extended beyond Langstaff.

John does not have a bus at Yonge. Of course, Olde Thornhill doesn't need much bus service, consisting of about 12 stores, 1 apartment building, and 100 mansions. In the future, the only difference is that a few three storey buildings will be added. Bessarion was built with the knowledge that thousands of residential units were going into the neighbourhood...there is no comparison. The buses can run to Clark, adding a bit of local service to Yonge. Doing this will save $100 million and the time it takes to serve one useless station.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Uh, it makes a million times more sense to rebuild a concrete pad than to divert a subway line. But this is only relevant if the Yonge line's going to be extended beyond Langstaff.

John does not have a bus at Yonge. Of course, Olde Thornhill doesn't need much bus service, consisting of about 12 stores, 1 apartment building, and 100 mansions. In the future, the only difference is that a few three storey buildings will be added. Bessarion was built with the knowledge that thousands of residential units were going into the neighbourhood...there is no comparison. The buses can run to Clark, adding a bit of local service to Yonge. Doing this will save $100 million and the time it takes to serve one useless station.

If by useless station you mean Helen than yes. If by affluent neighborhoods you mean unworthy of even a full service bus, explain how so much of the TTC's bus and subway network's so devoted to serving well-to-do areas?

It's a pity you choose to cut me off with one sentence quips when obviously what I'm saying makes alot of sense. In the grand scheme of things what you're doing is effectively cutting off a lengthy concession road by placing stops at short-running mid-blocks instead. This makes no sense because three condos and a 7/11 cannot obviously provide a substantial walk-in base. A lenghty feeder bus has limitless influx of commuters, making even a few thousand walk-ins at Centre-John acceptable. Add reroutes of routes 2 and 3, even better. Why so bitter and critical when next to Richmond Hill Centre, it's Centre-John that has the greatest regional potential of all the new 905 stops ?

 

[RedRocket191]

Uh, it makes a million times more sense to rebuild a concrete pad than to divert a subway line. But this is only relevant if the Yonge line's going to be extended beyond Langstaff.

I think that too much has been invested / is being invested in the Langstaff gateway to avoid a connection. Build a walkway if you want, just don't pretend like it isn't there.