Montréal Transit Developments

[afransen]

No - Eglinton is designed for 90-metre trains. This line is talking about a single 40-metre vehicle. A simple 40 or 45-metre Flexity streetcar would serve the demand.

If the only alternative is underground (because of public objection to elevated downtown), it seems reasonable.

Recall the uproar when Doug Ford proposed building elevated transit down Front Street downtown! It's a tough sell.

By definition, J-walking is crossing against a signal. You literally can't J-walk when there's no signal!

That aside ... I would suggest prohibiting left turns (and why not, they are prohibited mostly on many downtown streets), and limiting them to the one-way streets instead.

I keep being told by so many people who must know better than me, that we'll be having fully automated automobiles down soon. How then is automated rolling stock not an option before then?

It would mean adding drivers... big expense vs elevated.

 

[nfitz]

It would mean adding drivers... big expense vs elevated.

It would be interesting to see an analysis. But my gut feel is that the additional cost of elevated, and the maintenance costs, would be similar or greater than the cost of operators.

I'd have to think that a loss in ridership would be what drives down profits. Which makes me wonder about the assumptions used. But where is this report everyone keeps alluding to?

 

[SFO-YYZ]

It would be interesting to see an analysis. But my gut feel is that the additional cost of elevated, and the maintenance costs, would be similar or greater than the cost of operators.

I'd have to think that a loss in ridership would be what drives down profits. Which makes me wonder about the assumptions used. But where is this report everyone keeps alluding to?

Not sure which report you keep referring to, but you realize that you have access to Google right? just like the rest of us.

 

[nfitz]

Not sure which report you keep referring to, but you realize that you have access to Google right? just like the rest of us.

p_xavier mentioned that "The CDPQi studied it and it would have a quarter of the ridership." in terms of surface versus elevated.

Yeah, I tried Googling ... given how unsuccessful that is for GO EAs I find, when I know the report exists, I'm not surprised that I'm having similar trouble finding reports elsewhere!

 

[officedweller]

... but if there's public outcry about building an El downtown, then the only other alternative is tunnel, ...

No, you're missing another alternative - build it elevated in the face of opposition.
The original Expo Line was built elevated by the Province over the objections of the Commercial Drive neighbourhood who wanted it tunneled. The City appeasing that neighbourhood is the primary reason that there isn't significant TOD at Broadway & Commercial (but it's coming soon).
Likewise, the Millennium Line was built through the Grandview Cut over the objections of environmentalists who chained themselves to trees.
Canada Line was, however, built undergound on Cambie as the RFP required tunneling south to at least 49th Ave with open trench/cut or tunnel the rest of the way. InTransitBC's bid tunneled to 63rd Ave. When elevated SkyTrain was first proposed down Cambie street in the early 1990s, the City reacted by designating the median boulevard as the "Cambie Heritage Boulevard" and planting hundreds more trees in the median.

 

[robmausser]

It would mean adding drivers... big expense vs elevated.

I think we will be seeing fully automated streetcars very soon, like in the next 10 years easily.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

No, you're missing another alternative - build it elevated in the face of opposition.
The original Expo Line was built elevated by the Province over the objections of the Commercial Drive neighbourhood who wanted it tunneled. The City appeasing that neighbourhood is the primary reason that there isn't significant TOD at Broadway & Commercial (but it's coming soon).
Likewise, the Millennium Line was built through the Grandview Cut over the objections of environmentalists who chained themselves to trees.
Canada Line was, however, built undergound on Cambie as the RFP required tunneling south to at least 49th Ave with open trench/cut or tunnel the rest of the way. InTransitBC's bid tunneled to 63rd Ave. When elevated SkyTrain was first proposed down Cambie street in the early 1990s, the City reacted by designating the median boulevard as the "Cambie Heritage Boulevard" and planting hundreds more trees in the median.

If you read through the French language media and commentary, majority of objections to building on an elevated structure on RL Boulevard are from urban planners and engineers, and not due to environmental or historical preservations (we aren't even in BAPE yet) or simple suburban NIMBYism. It's purely the logistics and integration of a large elevated infrastructure (and much larger station footprint) within 30-35 m road clearance, in the middle of a high rise canyon on both sides of the boulevard. I know people like to compare it to Vancouver Skytrain / Canada Line, but there are 2 key differences:

1. Most Vancouver neighborhoods outside of downtown have much lower density (both structural and population) than Montreal, not to mention downtown Montreal / Rene-Levesque Boulevard which is home to some of the densest and tallest commercial and residential neighborhoods in Canada. Cambie for the most part was and still is predominantly suburban single family home with a very wide road clearance. Richmond No. 3 road was even less dense when Canada Line was proposed. Canada Line ended up being buried under Cambie because of NIMBYism from some of the wealthiest residents in Vancouver who live along Cambie.

2. Speaking of Expo and Canada Line - both lines went underground as soon as they entered downtown (with the exception of Chinatown station on Expo). Imagine now that Translink is proposing an elevated Skytrain down Burrard or Granville streets in downtown Vancouver, cutting up downtown Van in half and mere meters away from historic structures like the Fairmont or the billion-dollar commercial high rises like the Bentall Centre. I'm absolutely certain the whole city of Vancouver would rise up.

This is a quick rendering of the elevated REM-B on the current Rene-Levesque boulevard done by a local engineer (important to consider the impact not only of the rail lines but the large station footprint and how they impact surrounding high rises):

Current RL Boulevard - notice the high building canyon and the distance between the tight clearance in between building facades.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

p_xavier mentioned that "The CDPQi studied it and it would have a quarter of the ridership." in terms of surface versus elevated.

Yeah, I tried Googling ... given how unsuccessful that is for GO EAs I find, when I know the report exists, I'm not surprised that I'm having similar trouble finding reports elsewhere!

Fair enough. Yes the CDPQi publication at time of announcement was quite light on details, it's more meant for media consumption...

We'll likely see more details when public consultations start.

 

[nfitz]

No, you're missing another alternative - build it elevated in the face of opposition.

An option for sure - but I was talking of options if that wasn't going to happen.

The original Expo Line was built elevated by the Province over the objections of the Commercial Drive neighbourhood who wanted it tunneled.

I don't think that's comparable to downtown Montreal. They tunnelled the original Expo line and the Canada line in downtown Vancouver. Why didn't they elevate that? That would be comparable.

 

[ARG1]

An option for sure - but I was talking of options if that wasn't going to happen.

I don't think that's comparable to downtown Montreal. They tunnelled the original Expo line and the Canada line in downtown Vancouver. Why didn't they elevate that? That would be comparable.

Tbf, they didn't tunnel the original Expo Line per se, they just reused an existing freight tunnel.

 

[nfitz]

Tbf, they didn't tunnel the original Expo Line per se, they just reused an existing freight tunnel.

I didn't know that! Reading further, it looks like the bit of tunnel at Waterfront station was new - I don't recall ever using the other two stations.

Gosh, I'm surprised a freight line wasn't elevated back then!

 

[asher__jo]

If you read through the French language media and commentary, majority of objections to building on an elevated structure on RL Boulevard are from urban planners and engineers, and not due to environmental or historical preservations (we aren't even in BAPE yet) or simple suburban NIMBYism. It's purely the logistics and integration of a large elevated infrastructure (and much larger station footprint) within 30-35 m road clearance, in the middle of a high rise canyon on both sides of the boulevard. I know people like to compare it to Vancouver Skytrain / Canada Line, but there are 2 key differences:

1. Most Vancouver neighborhoods outside of downtown have much lower density (both structural and population) than Montreal, not to mention downtown Montreal / Rene-Levesque Boulevard which is home to some of the densest and tallest commercial and residential neighborhoods in Canada. Cambie for the most part was and still is predominantly suburban single family home with a very wide road clearance. Richmond No. 3 road was even less dense when Canada Line was proposed. Canada Line ended up being buried under Cambie because of NIMBYism from some of the wealthiest residents in Vancouver who live along Cambie.

2. Speaking of Expo and Canada Line - both lines went underground as soon as they entered downtown (with the exception of Chinatown station on Expo). Imagine now that Translink is proposing an elevated Skytrain down Burrard or Granville streets in downtown Vancouver, cutting up downtown Van in half and mere meters away from historic structures like the Fairmont or the billion-dollar commercial high rises like the Bentall Centre. I'm absolutely certain the whole city of Vancouver would rise up.

This is a quick rendering of the elevated REM-B on the current Rene-Levesque boulevard done by a local engineer (important to consider the impact not only of the rail lines but the large station footprint and how they impact surrounding high rises):

View attachment 292522

Current RL Boulevard - notice the high building canyon and the distance between the tight clearance in between building facades.
View attachment 292523
View attachment 292527

Thanks for the renders. Really illustrates that it will still be visually intrusive and RL is not an appropriate st to have it elevated. If elevated going down a side street like Viger would be preferable (as most building entrances face off Viger or it's not a predominantly commercial street).

 

[ARG1]

I didn't know that! Reading further, it looks like the bit of tunnel at Waterfront station was new - I don't recall ever using the other two stations.

Gosh, I'm surprised a freight line wasn't elevated back then!

Well the section at Waterfront isn't even a tunnel. If you look at early footage of the line, the section is actually out in the opened. What happened is since the expo line opened, a ton of parking garages and skyrises were built on top of it, somewhat similar to what happened between St. Clair and Summerhill, but on a much larger scale.

Here's a timestamp if you're interested:

 

[p_xavier]

p_xavier mentioned that "The CDPQi studied it and it would have a quarter of the ridership." in terms of surface versus elevated.

Yeah, I tried Googling ... given how unsuccessful that is for GO EAs I find, when I know the report exists, I'm not surprised that I'm having similar trouble finding reports elsewhere!

It wasn't published, they only posted a slide on it. It was discussed with other transit authorities for validation.

 

[nfitz]

It wasn't published, they only posted a slide on it. It was discussed with other transit authorities for validation.View attachment 292629

That's for streetcar though with more frequent stops - you can see that from the 20 km/hr speed. Would be more over 25 km/hr with only stops at Berri, St. Laurent, and University - perhaps closer to 28 km/hr.

Is there no freedom of information access in Quebec?