Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[TOareaFan]

What are you talking about? They are using the same model SRVM they've already had in service without complaint for years that take cash and credit cards. Presumably one takes the existing software and hardware, and just adds the ability to accept tokens.


Sure ... but how many years have TTC been operating this virtually identical SRVMs already?

All you need to do is adding tokens to the existing TTC SRVMs, and power them from a vehicle, rather than outside. Aren't you overstating this?

This really falls into the "learn something new everyday category".....I did not know the TTC already had SRVM....I don't think I have ever seen one....are they around in a lot of places? What do they look like?

 

[nfitz]

This really falls into the "learn something new everyday category".....I did not know the TTC already had SRVM....I don't think I have ever seen one....are they around in a lot of places?

There's been two near the Pearson Airport Terminal 1 stop since 2010. I thought they were planning more, including the same machines at streetcar stops, but then the whole Presto thing happened.

What do they look like?

They look like the ones they are putting on the streetcar.

Here's a photo of the ones at Pearson airport:

They look almost exactly like the one that's been installed on the new streetcars:

Hence my bewilderment that there's any concern about this temporary solution not functioning. I don't think I've heard a single complaint about the operation of these machines.

People seemed pleased with them when we discussed them here previously in http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/11624-TTC-Ticket-Kiosk-at-Pearson back when there were installed over 4 years ago. There was even speculation here that these machines would also be used at the streetcar stops for the Flexities (given the solar panels that were visible on top, despite being located indoors).

They appear to have removed the solar panel, and part of the base, for the ones mounted in the streetcar. Presumably those outside will look even more similar.

 

[TOareaFan]

Thanks Nfitz.....I really had no idea these existed......so if I understand you correctly, these only exist at the airport? Shame that, I can think of a few places they could be really helpful (like the streetcar loop at the Ex for example) where a lot of non-regular ttc might enter the system

 

[nfitz]

Thanks Nfitz.....I really had no idea these existed......so if I understand you correctly, these only exist at the airport? Shame that, I can think of a few places they could be really helpful (like the streetcar loop at the Ex for example) where a lot of non-regular ttc might enter the system

I think these were the only two installed. Prototypes I'd assume. There were plans for more on-street locations at busy streetcar stops and new fareboxes for the vehicles (wasn't there even a brief trial, and an aborted longer one?), but it all came grinding to a halt after the move to go to Presto made it superfluous.

Given they've resurrected an existing solution, and done so by leasing equipment rather than purchasing it, I'd say they've done very well. Personally I was anticipating that the two new Flexities would have conductors on them! Which really wouldn't have been that expensive for a few weeks, and could have had other publicity benefits. Perhaps if they'd known earlier that they'd only have had 2 new streetcars, and that Presto would actually be having their equipment in place so quickly afterwards, they wouldn't have bothered.

 

[BMO]

Thanks Nfitz.....I really had no idea these existed......so if I understand you correctly, these only exist at the airport? Shame that, I can think of a few places they could be really helpful (like the streetcar loop at the Ex for example) where a lot of non-regular ttc might enter the system

I had no idea either, and probably 99% of this board didn't either . But apparently Nfitz thinks it's common knowledge He could have avoided a lot of his high-horse text vendetta by stating this two pages ago. Regardless...two existing machines, does not, an economy of scale make. And it doesn't stipulate whether they are three NEW machines or not.

 

[BMO]

Just delay the streetcars for three months? Though surely the last day of August to first day of November is 2 months (though given Presto's inability to meet a deadline, who knows how long it will really be) #mathfail

considering the cars go into service in August and the machines will be replaced in November I did an off-the-top of my head calculation quickly without looking at the dates. But I'm glad we have people like you around who know everything!

 

[TOareaFan]

I had no idea either, and probably 99% of this board didn't either . But apparently Nfitz thinks it's common knowledge He could have avoided a lot of his high-horse text vendetta by stating this two pages ago. Regardless...two existing machines, does not, an economy of scale make. And it doesn't stipulate whether they are three NEW machines or not.

I think his point was that the technology exists, is in use and that leasing some more of them for a short term temporary use is not a big deal....least that's what I took from it. It may be just as surprising to him that more of us don't know about them as it is to us that he does.

What I really got from it was what a shame they have not put these out in other places with crowds of people that are ocassional TTC users instead of creating huge line ups at the ticket window. Places like the Ex streetcar loop or Union Station for example.

 

[Electrify]

Looking at the PDF, it looks like they will be moving from an "electronic token" to a more substantial implementation with concession fares. I wonder if they will at this time also set it up to work the the TTC Times Two program with GO? So in theory, one could get on the subway at Don Mills, catch a GO train at Leslie/Oriole, and then tap on to the subway at Union without being charged extra.

 

[nfitz]

I had no idea either, and probably 99% of this board didn't either . But apparently Nfitz thinks it's common knowledge He could have avoided a lot of his high-horse text vendetta by stating this two pages ago.

High horse vendetta? What with all this eye-rolling every time you demonstrate your ignorance.

We had a thread here about these machines when they were installed. They are mentioned prominently on TTC's website. And they've been there for years. I confess though I hadn't realised they were exactly the same machines when I first commented - I only assumed they'd be similar.

Regardless...two existing machines, does not, an economy of scale make. And it doesn't stipulate whether they are three NEW machines or not.

I'm not sure economy of scale is a big issue for a few rented machines for a couple of months. The concerns you expressed earlier included "customize it for the TTC", "develop the TTC customized UI/UX inputs and coding", and "These things take months even after implementation to debug". Not to mention "biggest clusterfuck of a roll-out I've ever seen".

I can only assume your clusterfuck experience is very limited, for this to be the biggest!

 

[nfitz]

I wonder if they will at this time also set it up to work the the TTC Times Two program with GO? So in theory, one could get on the subway at Don Mills, catch a GO train at Leslie/Oriole, and then tap on to the subway at Union without being charged extra.

One would think that you would be able to.

We'll have to see how they implement transfer rules in November. If they go for 2-hour transfer window rather than implementing the current complex table of valid transfers, it then presumably TTC Times Two would be automatically implemented, assuming that your second (or third ...) TTC leg starts less than 2-hours after your first one starts. I suppose your screwed if you get stuck in the train for 2 hours. But then I assume you can phone up customer service, and they'll happily refund you $2.70.

 

[Electrify]

One would think that you would be able to.

We'll have to see how they implement transfer rules in November. If they go for 2-hour transfer window rather than implementing the current complex table of valid transfers, it then presumably TTC Times Two would be automatically implemented, assuming that your second (or third ...) TTC leg starts less than 2-hours after your first one starts. I suppose your screwed if you get stuck in the train for 2 hours. But then I assume you can phone up customer service, and they'll happily refund you $2.70.

That's a very good point. I wonder how much the TTC gets reimbursed from go for this feature? Since there would officially no longer be discount, at least for the time being, they could use that money to help cover the lost costs of the timed transfer.

 

[nfitz]

That's a very good point. I wonder how much the TTC gets reimbursed from go for this feature? Since there would officially no longer be discount, at least for the time being, they could use that money to help cover the lost costs of the timed transfer.

I expect it would be such a rare occurrence, I doubt they'd even bother establishing a protocol.

 

[BMO]

I think his point was that the technology exists, is in use and that leasing some more of them for a short term temporary use is not a big deal....least that's what I took from it. It may be just as surprising to him that more of us don't know about them as it is to us that he does.

What I really got from it was what a shame they have not put these out in other places with crowds of people that are ocassional TTC users instead of creating huge line ups at the ticket window. Places like the Ex streetcar loop or Union Station for example.

fair enough, the internet is such that it's hard to really understand the tone in which things are said. I possibly took it the wrong way assuming he was acting like it was common knowledge.

 

[BMO]

...
I'm not sure economy of scale is a big issue for a few rented machines for a couple of months...

and bingo, this is exactly the kind of mentality that I have an issue with. It's another example (albeit a smaller example) of the waste and negligence that Metrolinx and the TTC have demonstrated on this project. I think it merits questioning whether it could be done in a more efficient manner. I have yet to hear a SINGLE argument or point saying how this is in any way a cheaper or a more efficient way to handle the PRESTO roll-out. It's fine and dandy to show me pictures of SFV machines at Pearson as well as state a time-frame which isn't terribly long (2 months as you so eloquently made me aware). But those don't peg anything down other than the TTC may have used similar machines before, which I assume would still be needed at Pearson so it's not like they woudl be moving them onto the streetcars. It's the fact that we've seen this entire charade before and I would consider it highly naive to not question whether they ARE doing the best job they can do.

And while I acknowledge I was being a big jerk talking about it last week, I don't think my opinion and point are entirely invalid.

 

[nfitz]

and bingo, this is exactly the kind of mentality that I have an issue with. It's another example (albeit a smaller example) of the waste and negligence that Metrolinx and the TTC have demonstrated on this project. I think it merits questioning whether it could be done in a more efficient manner. I have yet to hear a SINGLE argument or point saying how this is in any way a cheaper or a more efficient way to handle the PRESTO roll-out. It's fine and dandy to show me pictures of SFV machines at Pearson as well as state a time-frame which isn't terribly long (2 months as you so eloquently made me aware). It's the fact that we've seen this entire charade before and I would consider it highly naive to not question whether they ARE doing the best job they can do.

I don't think anyone said it was to save money. It's to allow the roll out to start in the case that Presto isn't available in time.

Personally, I'd have gone for on-board conductors myself. And maybe TTC would have if they only anticipated they'd have 2 vehicles in service before Presto was ready.

I can't even begin to fathom the upsetness about such a short-term and small-scale project. This isn't even as big as a pilot project.