Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[ksun]

There was never any plan to fully implement it in 2014. It's less than 2 years ago since TTC agreed to accept Presto. The first part of TTC implementation begins this weekend. Full implementation won't be until 2017.

I'm not sure why you think it will be any different.

I admire your patience. All the years and money wasted talking about a decision aside, this thing should not take more than two years to implement to start with, not to say five. It's a damn fare card other cities used for years or decades. Five years should be the time taken to finish a subway line or a bridge, not such a small project like adopting a fare card. But again, toronto possess unusual perseverance and it's wrong for me to think it takes too long.

 

[nfitz]

I admire your patience. All the years and money wasted talking about a decision aside, this thing should not take more than two years to implement to start with, not to say five. It's a damn fare card other cities used for years or decades. Five years should be the time taken to finish a subway line or a bridge, not such a small project like adopting a fare card. But again, toronto possess unusual perseverance and it's wrong for me to think it takes too long.

Small project? It's near half-a-billion dollars. That's not the kind of thing you rush into. Other deployments have taken a similar amount of time.

TTC has basically handed over control of implementation to Metrolinx. Remember the person at Metrolinx responsible for Presto got fired for how badly Metrolinx messed up Presto implementation in Ottawa. You don't think his replacement isn't being extra careful with this? They do it badly, and they could bring down the entire Presto system, resulting in compensation necessary to Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, Go Transit, and all the small agencies in the GTA.

 

[rbt]

Small project? It's near half-a-billion dollars. That's not the kind of thing you rush into. Other deployments have taken a similar amount of time.

TTC has basically handed over control of implementation to Metrolinx. Remember the person at Metrolinx responsible for Presto got fired for how badly Metrolinx messed up Presto implementation in Ottawa. You don't think his predecessor isn't being extra careful with this? They do it badly, and they could bring down the entire Presto system, resulting in compensation necessary to Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto, Go Transit, and all the small agencies in the GTA.

Also worth noting is the TTC transaction volume will be 10x that of everyone else together. I have no doubt they will discover a few serious design flaws in scaling it up along the way (Accenture doesn't do anything until long after it's necessary).

Even an open source database can do 100k transactions per second on modest ($10k) hardware but I think we can count on Accenture to have put in a single-threaded middleware or something else remarkably stupid. It's been 10 years since I've worked with them but their priority was to take the letter of what the client requested in the contract and not tell the client that wouldn't achieve the goal. Contract changes are huge profit.

 

[ksun]

Small project? It's near half-a-billion dollars. That's not the kind of thing you rush into. Other deployments have taken a similar amount of time.

.

the fact that adopting a damn fare card system costs half a billion says a lot about how responsible and efficient our transit managers are.
Hundreds of cities are using various automatic payment systems, and I don't think it all cost half a billion. It is not really some high tech cutting edge technology that only a small number of elite cities get to enjoy.

 

[innsertnamehere]

on systems the size of toronto where you have to install it on 200 streetcars, 75 subway stations, and 1,900 buses, yes it tends to cost in the range we are looking at. We are getting other niceties such as new faregates out of it as well.

 

[rbt]

on systems the size of toronto where you have to install it on 200 streetcars, 75 subway stations, and 1,900 buses, yes it tends to cost in the range we are looking at. We are getting other niceties such as new faregates out of it as well.

I had believed the faregates were something the TTC was doing independent of Presto (concurrent deployment but not covered by the Metrolinx bill).

 

[ksun]

on systems the size of toronto where you have to install it on 200 streetcars, 75 subway stations, and 1,900 buses, yes it tends to cost in the range we are looking at. We are getting other niceties such as new faregates out of it as well.

Trust me, the size of the TTC system is NOT large by any stretch by international standards.

Munich has about exactly half of Toronto's geographic and population size (300km sq, 1.4M pop). It has 96 U-Banh (subway) stations. 150 S-Banh stations (covering metro Munich - population 2.7 million) and 103 trams, for example. And it is just one of those cities.

To say we are so slow and expensive because we have "massive" size is silly. TTC is not tiny but hardly large.

 

[aquateam]

Trust me, the size of the TTC system is NOT large by any stretch by international standards.

Munich has about exactly half of Toronto's geographic and population size (300km sq, 1.4M pop). It has 96 U-Banh (subway) stations. 150 S-Banh stations (covering metro Munich - population 2.7 million) and 103 trams, for example. And it is just one of those cities.

To say we are so slow and expensive because we have "massive" size is silly. TTC is not tiny but hardly large.

I'm sure there are many systems that dwarf the TTC, but unless you have dollar figures or a timeline for their smartcard implementation then we can't make a comparison. My impression is that the province went with Presto instead of a COTS solution in order to save money. It's their boondoggle, not the TTC's.

It would be useful to have some (inflation adjusted) figures to look at the cost of other contactless smartcard systems. The following would be a good start:
Chicago - Ventra - $454 million (2011 USD) - ??? years
Hong Kong - Octopus - ?????? million - 3 years
Montreal - Opus - $138 million (2008 USD) - 2 years
Thailand - Rabbit - ?????? million - ??? years
Melbourne - MYKI - ?????? million - ??? years
Singapore - EZ link - $134 million (2000 SGD) - ??? years

 

[Electrify]

If your card simply goes negative, and then you add funds somehow, it shouldn't need unlocking. They changed that a while ago. Has this happened recently?

I didn't realize that. Thank God! Not every Presto user uses GO and can get their cards unlocked quickly and conveniently.

 

[mdrejhon]

I didn't realize that. Thank God! Not every Presto user uses GO and can get their cards unlocked quickly and conveniently.

Since I started using Presto this year, I didn't know Presto was ever like that. Did not know cards got locked when they go negative. I was told that if I registered my card, I have the privelage of being allowed one tap to let the card go negative. So I could tap onto a GoTrain even if I didn't have enough. Then I could pay online or at a service desk to refill the card to positive territory.

My biggest issue with Presto is:
-- The 24 hour delay on online Presto refills for Toronto GOTrains. When I refilled in Ottawa, I noticed I could tap within a few hours -- I guess Ottawa has the 2nd gen Presto readers now. (Both Ottawa and Hamilton are fully prestoified)
-- We need Presto refill kiosks at every subway station & every GO station. Montreal has that already -- you can refill their equivalent (Opus) card at any of their Metro stations.
-- TTC. Enough said. (hurry up, will ya -- and get Ottawa's 2nd gen readers)

That said, becoming a new Presto user in year 2014 in Ottawa or Hamilton, it's rather convenient now after they've already ironed out the majority of the "boondoggle glitches". I hear other systems (e.g. Montreal Opus) was a quagmire during deployment before it became rather nice. I wish Toronto TTC was the same already.

It's their boondoggle, not the TTC's.

If you become a new Presto user in year 2014 outside of Toronto, it doesn't feel like a boondoggle. The glitches have mostly been ironed out in several cities.

Last month, I travelled from Hamilton to Ottawa. I tapped onto the Hamilton HSR bus, then tapped onto GOTrain to Toronto Union, then after the intercity trip, I tapped onto the Ottawa OCTranspo bus. Three major cities all in one day on the same card. And when I ran out of money on Presto in Ottawa (balance became negative), I just refilled online and the card was apparently working again next time I used the system a few hours later (I later found out presto updates faster in Ottawa, and Metrolinx is working on realtime online refill eventually.).

A more appropriate cost benchmark is cost-per-user. Due to Presto's coverage of multiple transit systems, it may actually turn out to be apparently competitive or cheaper. despite the boondoggle and cost overruns. From what I read, almost every major tap card system turned out to be a boondoggle at the beginning, so it would be good to compare system approval ratings for first-year operation versus third-year operation, etc. (If such stats existed)

Now, for TTC -- Presto is no fun (yet). Boo!

 

[Electrify]

All GO train stations can load credit to the card instantly. Of course, unless you happen to be on the Lake Shore line, most stations are only open for a few hours in the morning.

I definitely agree that there needs to be more places to service your card though. When I've been to New York, I don't think I ever had the urge to load my card online because it is so convenient to add funds and passes from stations, convenience stores, etc. Because of the limited number of customer service outlets, Presto lends itself to wanting to be loaded online. However the lag of getting funds to the readers is frustrating. I can understand buses and portable readers because they aren't always connected, but stationary readers at train and bus stations should be near instant. Even then, if they worked like most POS terminals they would queue up the balance from the server when a card is tapped, rather than wait for the daily update.

Also, if your card goes into a negative, do you have to pay the penalty fee still, or just clear the negative balance?

 

[mdrejhon]

Also, if your card goes into a negative, do you have to pay the penalty fee still, or just clear the negative balance?

No penalty for registered Presto cards. It just behaves like an interest-free bank overdraft to me. I take advantage of it all the time on GOTrains, it's fun tapping on with just $2.50 left, refill by my iPad in the morning, be able to tap again on my return trip after work.

If you do an online refill and then tap at a reader at GO station, then leave ~6-8 hours so refill online as early as possible preferably via your mobile phone/tablet on your morning commute, so you're ready for the return commute if you tapped into a negative balance on your morning commute. I keep getting failed taps if I refill only a few hours before my GOTrain trip. Ottawa readers seems to recognize the refill much faster; Ottawa buses now refill via cellular data on the fly every 4 hours.

But, yes, refilling at a station attendant or self-refill kiosk (those are FINALLY arriving) is better and instant, it's guaranteed to work on the next tap at any properly functionng reader on any Presto system.

 

[nfitz]

the fact that adopting a damn fare card system costs half a billion says a lot about how responsible and efficient our transit managers are.

I think it says nothing, except perhaps about those who think they know how to do it better than the professionals.

Hundreds of cities are using various automatic payment systems, and I don't think it all cost half a billion. It is not really some high tech cutting edge technology that only a small number of elite cities get to enjoy.

The estimate for TTC was $350 to $450 million for a system that carried 525 million people in 2013. A cost of about 66¢ to 86¢ a passenger.

Vancouver went to Cubic for their system, and that cost is about $200 million for a system that carried 232 million riders in 2013 - a cost of 94¢ a passenger.

At the same time, Vancouver's system is going so badly, that Translink is talking about eliminating their zone system before they fully implement their smartcard, because Cubic's system appears to be incapable of processing tap-outs properly. There have been other complaints about extremely slow processing times, and concerns this could slow down boarding when they implement it.

Meanwhile, it's 5 years now since Translink started to implement their SmartCard system; it was supposed to be operation in 2013, and won't be until 2015 at this rate. They've done some testing, but they haven't implemented it for any service yet for everyone to use (as far as I know). TTC rollout might be behind schedule, however it will be implemented for all users in less than 2 years since they started on some vehicles, and has been available for a few weeks already at Spadina station (the first of the stations which were done as part of the December 2012 agreement with TTC).

So despite your comments, TTC is both faster and cheaper than other deployments. And actually seems to work. And seems more flexible - I'm not sure the Vancouver system is designed to take credit/debit and phones.

 

[gweed123]

I think the thing that frustrates me the most about the TTC Presto implementation is that the TTC managed to implement it at some subway stations, but stopped well short of implementing it at all stations. I can fully understand the hesitancy/delay associated with implementing it on streetcars and buses, due to the amount of mobile infrastructure that needs to be in place. But if they've managed to implement it at some subway stations, why not take that extra step and do it at all subway stations?

I often take the GO Train in from Burlington to visit a friend who lives near Wellesley Station. It's frustrating that even though it's a rail-only trip, I can tap onto the GO Train and tap on at Union Subway station using Presto, but for the trip back at Wellesley I need to use cash or tokens. If the implementation with putting in new Presto turnstiles is a problem, put a Presto machine next to the fare collection booth so that people can tap right in front of the attendant before getting on.

 

[nfitz]

I think the thing that frustrates me the most about the TTC Presto implementation is that the TTC managed to implement it at some subway stations, but stopped well short of implementing it at all stations.

TTC did their first Presto implementation a few weeks ago at Spadina station. The other stations way back when were entirely by Metrolinx at no cost to TTC, and with little involvement by TTC. It's just temporary to allow GO, YRT, and MiWay passsengers some convenience.

I can fully understand the hesitancy/delay associated with implementing it on streetcars and buses, due to the amount of mobile infrastructure that needs to be in place. But if they've managed to implement it at some subway stations, why not take that extra step and do it at all subway stations?

Because Metrolinx has neither the responsibility, or the funding, to do so. And the deal they offered TTC to adopt Presto was going to screw Toronto out of hundreds of millions, as Giambrone and Miller so clearly demonstrated when they tendered a more sophisticated system for far less money.