Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

By the province, who then tendered it that way, assuming that the City would provide about $400 million to install it.

When the city realised that they could install their own smart-card system for closer to $100 million, and that it would also support cell phones and bank cards, unlike Presto, the city went their own direction, in order to save a lot of money.

Only after the city issued tenders, and had realistic bids, did the province finally come to the table, and offer to improve Presto, and find a way to make it a LOT cheaper for Toronto to install it (by the province paying for it up front, and receiving an increased % of each payment, while TTC's fare costs go down by about the same amount).

Had Miller and Giambrone rolled over and agreed to what the province initially wanted on Presto, it might have been installed. However either our taxes or transit fares would be higher.

That may all be true. Doesn't change the fact that the city surely know they wouldn't be able to go their own way.
I wasn't there at the table so for all I know the people at the province were being meanies (while giving the city $8 billion) but I suspect there were more practical and politically sensitive ways to go about it than pursuing an entirely new system. It was a game of chicken, as far as I can tell, and never a real effort.

Putting aside the specifics of any flaws with Presto and whether the city ended up with a "better" deal and whether the province should have done more to off-set TTC's install costs off the top, it seems pretty clear to me that having Presto operating across the GTA and a different, open payment system in Toronto (not that what they were looking at was fully in use anywhere else at the time, BTW) would have been making its way to the top of the Top 10 Stupid Transit Mistakes in GTA History list, with a bullet.

In the meantime, they delayed the install by several years and, as someone who travels between 416 and 905 all the time, I find it borderline embarrassing.

 

[nfitz]

Are the stopside fare vending machines going to be retrofitted to accept Presto? Can't imagine using Presto on Spadina right now when your chances of getting a Presto-enabled streetcar are what they are now.

The previous announcement was that the current stopside vending machines were temporary, and just rental units. They would be replaced with permanent units once Presto was enabled. Presumably you'd tap on, and then get a POP receipt if you were going to transfer.

If you are just riding on Spadina, then you shouldn't need the POP receipt if you've tapped on at the stop, because the fare inspectors will have Presto devices to check your card, even if they are on an old streetcar. Though I'd grap one anyway, in case you end up transferring later on, if your plans change.

 

[nfitz]

That may all be true. Doesn't change the fact that the city surely know they wouldn't be able to go their own way.

Of course they knew that. Didn't we make note that this was likely just a negotiating tactic here in this very forum back in 2009 or 2010?

But they needed to document it enough, to be able to have the leverage to get the province to educe to a reasonable amount. To do otherwise, would have been fiscally irresponsible, and voters have made it quite clear, that saving money on taxes is far more important than anything else.

 

[rbt]

That may all be true. Doesn't change the fact that the city surely know they wouldn't be able to go their own way.

The city did get their own way. It got a market price with market features.

The brandname may not have changed but Presto v1 and Presto v2 are quite different animals.

 

[TOareaFan]

The city did get their own way. It got a market price with market features.

The brandname may not have changed but Presto v1 and Presto v2 are quite different animals.

Was v.2 created just to appease the City or was it in the works anyway? If it is the former you are correct....if it was the latter then, sure, if you delay buying tech stuff long enough you get a better version.....they could keep delaying and get v.6 where you just blink at the machine as you board the streetcar and it not only charges you the fare it also estimates the time till you get home and starts your microwave dinner at the optimal time.

 

[rbt]

Was v.2 created just to appease the City or was it in the works anyway?

Well for that you would need inside information in Presto. We know it was not underway or even on a timeline when when the city issued their tender.

We also know the v1 design (which really wasn't very old; the trend existed while it was being designed) didn't even try to accommodate some now standard features.

 

[nfitz]

Well for that you would need inside information in Presto. Publicly this feature-set was not intended. We also know it was not underway when when the city issued their tender.

I don't recall hearing ANY mention of smart phones or bank cards being usable on Presto, until the TTC tender was issued, and then suddenly the tune changed in early 2010.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't recall hearing ANY mention of smart phones or bank cards being usable on Presto, until the TTC tender was issued, and then suddenly the tune changed in early 2010.

What version did Ottawa get? Thought it was different than the one rolled out in the 905

 

[Wrenkin]

What version did Ottawa get? Thought it was different than the one rolled out in the 905

I think GO originally had 1, and Ottawa got 2.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think GO originally had 1, and Ottawa got 2.

So....was there enough time between the TTC tender and the Ottawa roll out to spec/design/build a version 2 or is it just a coincidence that version 2 became magically available to the TTC after their tender?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

So....was there enough time between the TTC tender and the Ottawa roll out to spec/design/build a version 2 or is it just a coincidence that version 2 became magically available to the TTC after their tender?

I can only speculate but it seems obvious-ish to me that technology, you know, keeps getting better.
Presto took longer than it should have to rollout (even before TTC) and so open payment options became increasingly viable. Is it possible Presto didn't know open payment was the "wave of the future" or that they had no intention of ever using it? Is it more likely the city either brought these new ideas to their attention (seems possible but unlikely) or perhaps created public pressure for them to move on them sooner than later (seems more likely)?

I guess you'd have to be inside to know but I still can't say I'm a fan of the TTC's "negotiating tactic."
I understand their totally legit financial concerns etc. It would be easier to call their moves a rousing success if it wasn't 2015 and we weren't still, what, two years from having it actually implemented? I know the reasons are different but I look at that and I look at Transit City and I see the country's biggest city wasting a lot of time and backtracking on crucial transit projects.

 

[rbt]

So....was there enough time between the TTC tender and the Ottawa roll out to spec/design/build a version 2 or is it just a coincidence that version 2 became magically available to the TTC after their tender?

There was enough time. Metrolinx was aware of the TTC requirements long before TTC actually placed the tender. 24 to 36 months seems to be the going rate for starting smart-card rollouts. Also, Ottawa's rollout was botched due to it being rushed out the door, so you really want to add 3 to 6 months to twhatever gap existed.

 

[Electrify]

This would be a great place for Tory to show his stuff and get it running before the Pan Am games. That said, even if it is ceremonial, I wouldn't mind seeing him chop some heads for the slow rollout.

 

[rbt]

This would be a great place for Tory to show his stuff and get it running before the Pan Am games. That said, even if it is ceremonial, I wouldn't mind seeing him chop some heads for the slow rollout.

Tory doesn't have much authority over Accenture staff.

 

[Evening]

I can only speculate but it seems obvious-ish to me that technology, you know, keeps getting better.
Presto took longer than it should have to rollout (even before TTC) and so open payment options became increasingly viable. Is it possible Presto didn't know open payment was the "wave of the future" or that they had no intention of ever using it? Is it more likely the city either brought these new ideas to their attention (seems possible but unlikely) or perhaps created public pressure for them to move on them sooner than later (seems more likely)?

I guess you'd have to be inside to know but I still can't say I'm a fan of the TTC's "negotiating tactic."
I understand their totally legit financial concerns etc. It would be easier to call their moves a rousing success if it wasn't 2015 and we weren't still, what, two years from having it actually implemented? I know the reasons are different but I look at that and I look at Transit City and I see the country's biggest city wasting a lot of time and backtracking on crucial transit projects.

From what I read about the auditor general's report on Presto, v1 was supposed to include all the features including open payment. the company presto got to create the system however failed to accomplish this. presto in its incredible stupidity decided instead of taking the company to court and fining the company for not obeying by the contract, decided to get into another contract and pay more money to the same company to get the things promised in the original contract.