Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[TOareaFan]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/04/18/a_streetcar_now_for_city_of_tomorrow.html

There's other references to "Mississauga" being the intended site, and a vacant factory was named. I'll dig it out later when I have more time.

If there are great...but that article does not say Mississauga is the intended site

 

[nfitz]

Because it was a Lib QP regime at the time, and a leftist Mayor.

Amare said "As long as Kathleen is in charge I wouldnt expect any changes over at Metrolinx. I'm expecting a big scandal coming out from that organization them in the near future." and you said "Once Del Duca is dethroned from Transport, the infection can be dealt with."

And we were discussing that, and suddenly you said "it was Miller's screw-up, not the PCs: "

I don't know what that has do do with Metrolinx and Del Duca.

 

[wilson_wu]

Can I just say how incredibly inefficient trams in Amsterdam are?

For one, there are two employees per tram. One drives the thing. A second sits in a fare booth. (Not to mention that thing took up SO MUCH space). I didn't know such a thing still existed to be honest. lol

Even with a plethora of doors to choose from, you can only enter through 2 of the 5 doors. The one facing the operator and the one facing the conductor.

This also means you can only exit through the remaining 3 doors.

 

[drum118]

Can I just say how incredibly inefficient trams in Amsterdam are?

For one, there are two employees per tram. One drives the thing. A second sits in a fare booth. (Not to mention that thing took up SO MUCH space). I didn't know such a thing still existed to be honest. lol

Even with a plethora of doors to choose from, you can only enter through 2 of the 5 doors. The one facing the operator and the one facing the conductor.

This also means you can only exit through the remaining 3 doors.

Both entrance have cash drawers to pay your fare and get money back, which is common on a lot of systems in Europe. Only the 5 sections have 2 people collecting fare money while the other have the driver doing it. The other 3 doors have gate that only open for getting off.

I agree the 5 sections loose a lot of room on this setup.

 

[kEiThZ]

If Bombardier had moved the Q400 line to Thunder Bay (at the airport rather than the rail plant), freeing up Downsview Airport for re-development, and brought the Flexity line to Toronto, that might have worked out very well.

Downsview is a military asset as well. There is no way the feds allow it to be developed easily. I've worked at the base. The CO has mentioned multiple times about developers approaching DND. And politely being turned down.

And moving an entire airframe production line to a place like Thunder Bay (with no aerospace supply chain in the region unlike the GTA)? Why the heck would Bombardier do that?

Lastly, I still don't get people who want to turn everything into condos. Do people not realize that the region needs well paying jobs?

 

[steveintoronto]

Amare said "As long as Kathleen is in charge I wouldnt expect any changes over at Metrolinx. I'm expecting a big scandal coming out from that organization them in the near future." and you said "Once Del Duca is dethroned from Transport, the infection can be dealt with."

And we were discussing that, and suddenly you said "it was Miller's screw-up, not the PCs: "

I don't know what that has do do with Metrolinx and Del Duca.

Here's what you posted:

Yeah - then the new minister can build LRT in North Bay, Sudbury, and Thunder Bay. Save on shipping those cars as far from Thunder Bay ...

I doubt it - it's all about the north isn't it ... that what the PCs did last time.

The PCs never did that! Mayor Miller pushed for for the TTC's LRVs, as he did with the 'sole contract for subway cars' to go to Thunder Bay, and under a Liberal Queen's Park regime, so were the Metrolinx LRVs. But the LRVs are being shifted to Millhaven, as my post on the matter made clear.

I'm certainly not one to defend the PCs, but your claim "that what the PCs did last time" is patently false. No LRVs were ever ordered under the PCs.

Bombardier shifts production in bid to speed up Toronto streetcar deliveries
MONTREAL—Bombardier is hoping to get its Toronto streetcar contract back on track and prevent delays at two other Ontario transit projects by shifting production among four sites in Ontario, Quebec and Mexico.

The company will relieve pressure in Thunder Bay, Ont., by shifting light rail projects for Metrolinx in Greater Toronto and the Kitchener-Waterloo region to its facility in Kingston, Ont.[...]

https://www.thestar.com/business/20...eetcar-deliveries-shift-production-sites.html

Metrolinx spends $770-million to order 182 LRT vehicles from Bombardier

Montreal — The Globe and Mail

Published Monday, Jun. 14, 2010 10:07AM EDT
Ontario's Metrolinx transportation agency has placed a $770-million order with Bombardier Transportation to buy 182 light rail vehicles after the province gave the green light to its transit expansion plan.

The vehicles, to be assembled in Thunder Bay, Ont., will be delivered between 2013 and 2020. They are expected to create 4,000 direct and indirect jobs.

The order flows out of a $851-million contract signed in June 2009 by Toronto Transit Commission for 204 low-floor streetcars. The TTC assigned the options to Metrolinx.
[...]
Ontario Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne said the program is part of the province's plan to create and support jobs that build the province's future vitality.
[...]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-lrt-vehicles-from-bombardier/article1211787/

Fitz later stated (gist) "You know I was just being sarcastic?" Well I suggest you might have been, might not have been, or can't even tell yourself, but don't feign I'm mistaken in what you wrote, I've itemized and linked it.

 

[nfitz]

The PCs never did that! Mayor Miller did for the TTC's ones, and under a Liberal Queen's Park regime, so were the Metrolinx LRVs. But the LRVs are being shifted to Millhaven, as my post on the matter made clear.

I'm certainly not one to defend the PCs, but your claim "that what the PCs did last time" is patently false.

???

I was talking about them being elected.

The last time they were elected was 1995. David Miller was not mayor in 1995.

I'm sure you remember what happened. He raped Toronto, cut off all funding to TTC and GO Transit, cancelled the under-construction Eglinton West subway (filled in the hole already being built) and instead started building expressways to Sudbury, North Bay, and new roads in Thunder Bay. Have you forgotten?

Besides, the whole thing was a light-hearted joke (well sort of - I have no doubt the Tories will again make cuts to Toronto transit - that's what they do.

 

[Steve X]

The PCs hated transit and did what is best for their budget, not the public. The 407 wouldn't be sold and the 400 would already reached Sudbury if it wasn't for the PCs. Transit and infrastructure funds are the easiest target as money is reserved but takes a long time to build. Honestly PCs are anti-transit and I have doubts what will happen if they are in power again.

 

[dowlingm]

And moving an entire airframe production line to a place like Thunder Bay (with no aerospace supply chain in the region unlike the GTA)? Why the heck would Bombardier do that?

Lastly, I still don't get people who want to turn everything into condos. Do people not realize that the region needs well paying jobs?

I was being a bit facetious about moving the Q400 line, although I did think moving it to Pearson's Douglas facility might have been worth a look when that closed.

I don't know what DND do at Downsview, but a huge chunk of land near the subway and a new GO station seems underused and more appropriate to development than the erosion going on in other industrial areas. Maybe a land swap could be done. If Pasternak ever wants to succeed in getting Sheppard extended west a big anchor development there could move the dial - look how much infrastructure spend is being gerrymandered for Unilever after all.

 

[steveintoronto]

I don't know what DND do at Downsview, but a huge chunk of land near the subway and a new GO station seems underused and more appropriate to development than the erosion going on in other industrial areas. Maybe a land swap could be done. If Pasternak ever wants to succeed in getting Sheppard extended west a big anchor development there could move the dial - look how much infrastructure spend is being gerrymandered for Unilever after all.

Without veering off-topic too far, it's a good point.

The uncertain fate of Toronto's Downsview Park
Gayle MacDonald


The Globe and Mail

Published Saturday, Dec. 08, 2012 6:00AM EST
[...]
Under Parc Downsview Park, Inc., plans were under way to construct a hockey arena with four rinks, as well as an aerospace/educational hub, a project intended to complement the existing Bombardier plant at the centre of the park that employs several thousand people.

Over the course of the past year, Ms. Ambrose’s office has disbanded PDP’s board. Its chair of the past five years, David Soknacki – a respected former councillor and city budget chief – is now looking for a new port of call. Like others, he has no clue why the original plan was jettisoned (the federal agency also took over management of the Old Port of Montreal, which is embroiled in a financial scandal). “Oh, I’m the wrong person to ask,” he says.

“Our goal was to create a park without reaching into the public’s pockets. So we created a plan that not only met the needs of financial sustainability, but also achieved just enough density to achieve the park and also create neighbourhoods that people were not only proud to live in, but live beside,” says Mr. Soknacki. “By the end of our mandate, we had endorsements from the ratepayers’ association and we feel we have exceeded the expectations. I understand that times change – it’s not for us to speculate on what the minister is thinking. Presumably she has a plan going forward.”
[...]
In 2015, the Spadina subway extension will be completed into Downsview, up to York University, and farther north into York region. Mr. Calabrese says three levels of government are footing the bill for the subway, and have told residents that 30 to 50 per cent of the “new residents” who live within 500 metres of a subway are going to take the subway, hence easing the gnarly congestion. Mr. Calabrese does not buy that. “What is the other 50 per cent or 70 per cent going to do? They’re going to drive. It’s as simple as that.”
[...]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...te-of-torontos-downsview-park/article6117677/

 

[muller877]

The PCs hated transit and did what is best for their budget, not the public. The 407 wouldn't be sold and the 400 would already reached Sudbury if it wasn't for the PCs. Transit and infrastructure funds are the easiest target as money is reserved but takes a long time to build. Honestly PCs are anti-transit and I have doubts what will happen if they are in power again.

Compared to the Liberals who will pay $1b to their friends to cancel a gas project?

Or are willing to enter into long term energy contracts and pay higher than market, jack up the rates for individuals, drive manufactures out of the province with the hydro rates, privatize Hydro to pay for their mistake and then pile costs onto the next generation to get them elected again?

Or keep on studying transit do death and never actually execute other than to build a subway so developers who give them lots of donations can earn more money to siphon to the Liberal Party or to a Super-PAC supporting the Liberal party?

Even after almost 25 years we cannot justify a subway along Eglinton. It's being built as a LRT for a reason. It was started to divert public's attention from Bob Rae's blunders including cancelling GO Train service.

And at that time the finances were in such a shambles (partly economics of the time and partly the NDP's fault) that we did need serious cost cutting. I would argue now we need someone who can figure out how to build infrastructure for a lot cheaper than $400M for one subway station building (not including the tunnel nor tracks...just the building).

 

[Cobra]

The PCs hated transit and did what is best for their budget, not the public. The 407 wouldn't be sold and the 400 would already reached Sudbury if it wasn't for the PCs. Transit and infrastructure funds are the easiest target as money is reserved but takes a long time to build. Honestly PCs are anti-transit and I have doubts what will happen if they are in power again.

a bit extreme to put that label on the PC based on just Harris. Historically, PC actually spend on infrastructure. They will go after Green policies and social programs way ahead of infrastructure funds. Let's not forget in what erea the Harris government was ruling under. The liberal Government of Chretien and Martin radically cut spending in provinces forcing all of them to make tough choices. We can all agree that some of them made the wrong ones, like in Quebec, not only did they neglected infrastructure, they gutted the healthcare system.

Saying that the PC is anti-transit is too easy and you're just generalizing. They might have different priorities on transit but you just need to look at what's being done in the US to see that even right wing Republicans spends and subsidize massively in public transit, way more than Canada.

 

[nfitz]

Red Tories spent on infrastructure provincially. Brown isn't a red Tory. Little hard to figure out what he's going to do, given some of the comments he makes are in direct opposition to his long history.

 

[Cobra]

Red Tories spent on infrastructure provincially. Brown isn't a red Tory. Little hard to figure out what he's going to do, given some of the comments he makes are in direct opposition to his long history.

He's not stupid either. Whether he believes in transit or not, is irrelevant. Ontario needs it's economy to grow and to cut spending at the same time. Infrastructure spending helps in the area of growth and the best way to cut from his ideology position is to attack green programs and some social programs to keep things basic. Of course, since the objective is winning, he will change the transit projects giving him the best chance to win.

 

[nfitz]

He's not stupid either. Whether he believes in transit or not, is irrelevant. Ontario needs it's economy to grow and to cut spending at the same time. Infrastructure spending helps in the area of growth and the best way to cut from his ideology position is to attack green programs and some social programs to keep things basic. Of course, since the objective is winning, he will change the transit projects giving him the best chance to win.

He isn't stupid - he seems very shrewd. And quite willing to ignore his principles. But exactly what is he? I don't think we are going to know until we have an election platform.