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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

http://www.thewhig.com/2016/12/08/bombardier-completes-expansion

Maybe a competitor will open a plant in Northern Ontario, but I highly doubt it. Until Trump's dump is figured out, and BBD's deliveries are rationalized, there's not going to be any investment in the niche. In fact, it remains to be seen how BBD will be able to "...turn its Kingston facility into a hub for light rail car production for Canada and the United States, Lefebvre said.".

Trump is indicating otherwise.
If I was to open a plant, I will open it in the GTA because shipping would be cheaper, finding skilled workers would be easier, much closer to the US (for orders and parts), much closer to the customers, better delivery routes (trucks, rail and water), etc. etc. etc. Even Siemens claim they'll open a plant in the GTA if they got the TTC streetcar order.

There's no hope for Northern Ontario. It's not going to develop and there's no market there. Only government incentives and low upkeep is keeping BBD there.
 
If I was to open a plant, I will open it in the GTA
Siemens, if they got the contract, were going to open a plant in Mississauga.
More than big money is riding on the deal. This contract is all about the two urgent urban concerns of 2009: the jobs of today and the city of tomorrow.
It could prop up the foundering economy of Thunder Bay, where Bombardier has a plant.
Or it could mean 200 new jobs in Mississauga and the GTA, where Siemens has pledged to build a plant if it gets the deal.
The TTC believes the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can reform the habits of car-tethered suburbanites and ease the long, depressing commutes of low-income workers living in underserviced areas.
http://www.mississauga.com/news-story/3145724-siemens-step-closer-to-building-streetcar/
 
If Bombardier had moved the Q400 line to Thunder Bay (at the airport rather than the rail plant), freeing up Downsview Airport for re-development, and brought the Flexity line to Toronto, that might have worked out very well.
 
You realise I was joking about LRT in Northern Ontario, right?
Nope. Neither did others. It was sarcastic in some manner, but far from clear in which way.
If Bombardier had moved the Q400 line to Thunder Bay (at the airport rather than the rail plant), freeing up Downsview Airport for re-development, and brought the Flexity line to Toronto, that might have worked out very well.
The most advanced Turboprop passenger plane in the world? (albeit some might argue that). All that tooling and expertise up to Thunder Bay? Leave them alone with TTC orders for now, and the ex HS DDs.
 
Nope. Neither did others. It was sarcastic in some manner, but far from clear in which way.
Other people thought I was serious when I said "the new minister can build LRT in North Bay, Sudbury, and Thunder Bay. Save on shipping those cars as far from Thunder Bay."?

I thought it was clear I was making fun of what the PCs did last time they were elected.

Though I suppose in a world where we are going to pay $4 billion for one subway station that it's hard to know where reality ends and comedy begins.

Heil Trump!
 
Other people thought I was serious when I said "the new minister can build LRT in North Bay, Sudbury, and Thunder Bay. Save on shipping those cars as far from Thunder Bay."?

I thought it was clear I was making fun of what the PCs did last time they were elected.

Though I suppose in a world where we are going to pay $4 billion for one subway station that it's hard to know where reality ends and comedy begins.

Heil Trump!
Well there's a problem with your illogic, Fitz. I'm a Centrist, but in this case, it was Miller's screw-up, not the PCs: (from a left of centre TorStar)
Federal Transportation Minister John Baird apologized to Toronto Mayor David Miller this morning after Baird greeted the city's application for streetcar cash with a profane "f... off."

"Minister Baird called me this morning and apologized for his comments, and we agreed to work together to ensure that we find a way that Toronto can buy its new streetcars and create thousands of jobs in Thunder Bay and across southwestern Ontario,'' Miller told reporters this afternoon outside city hall.

The request for money to buy 204 new streetcars — the city applied under Ottawa's $4 billion economic stimulus fund — was shot down yesterday by Baird who was in Whistler B.C.

In an unguarded moment, Baird told aides that Toronto stood alone in not meeting the technical criteria for federal cash, yet was complaining about Ottawa dragging its feet.

"Twenty-seven hundred people got it right. They didn't. That is not a partnership and they're bitching at us," he said.

Then Baird said: "They should f--- off."

Miller said he believes the streetcars fall within the funding structure of Ottawa's program.

"If you look at the guidelines for the program, this fits perfectly," Miller told reporters. "We asked the province beforehand and they agreed."

He went on to say the benefits of the proposed streetcar purchase are "extraordinary'' because it would create thousands of jobs.

"We recreate a manufacturing industry that had been very damaged, and the federal and provincial governments will get probably hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue through the income taxes paid by the workers,'' Miller said.

Miller insisted the streetcars qualify as a "shovel-ready project.''

"We have a massive new program to build transit in Toronto, supported by the provincial and federal governments. You of course need the cars to run on it and we need to replace our streetcars.

"That's why it's the right kind of program for federal and provincial funding, and I'm quite optimistic we'll find a way to make sure the street car purchase occurs."

Toronto wants to purchase 204 new cars from Bombardier, to be built in Thunder Bay for $1.2 billion.

The proposed deal is set to expire June 27, and will die if no money is forthcoming from Ottawa and the province.

In Ottawa this afternoon, Baird said his outburst came "out of frustration" and acknowledged that he had called Miller to apologize.

He said he was "looking to the future."

Rhyming off a list of federal investments in GTA transit projects, he said that the "best is yet to come."

Earlier, several city councillors were critical of Miller for failing to properly sell Toronto's infrastructure request to Baird and Ontario infrastructure minister George Smitherman.

Councillors said today that a better sales job on Baird was needed because the request for streetcar funds initially didn't meet the rules that say the money must create local jobs this year and next.

Under the streetcar deal, vehicles would roll out of Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant from 2011 to 2018.

"If this were the one project we wanted to fund, it would have been important to speak to the minister in advance to ensure that this was the right project," said Councillor Karen Stintz.

"It certainly appears that that didn't happen, which is unfortunate."

Earlier, Smitherman had also expressed frustration with Toronto's single request for streetcar money, which differed from other municipalities that submitted a list of projects, Stintz said.

"With the streetcar contract, we've seen the province has been caught off guard. Now, the federal government has been caught off guard.

"Based on George Smitherman's comments a few weeks ago and now Minister Baird's comments, it appears the city didn't take all the steps it could have taken. And the mayor didn't take all the steps he could have taken to communicate that this was the one project that meant a lot to Toronto."

Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, who has sparred with Miller over fixing Toronto's roads, said the city would have had no difficulty finding projects that clearly qualify for the $300 million-plus in federal funds that Toronto is seeking.

That may be why Baird was frustrated, Minnan-Wong said.

"I think the language he used was clearly inappropriate and regrettable, but it also — I think — reflects a level of frustration over not being able to fund projects that meet the guidelines," he said.

"I think he (Baird) wants to invest money into the city of Toronto for programs and projects that qualify. It's very difficult to give the city of Toronto money when they submit a single application that doesn't meet the requirements."
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/06/09/baird_to_miller_im_sorry.html

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you"

- Stealers Wheel
 
Well there's a problem with your illogic, Fitz. I'm a Centrist, but in this case, it was Miller's screw-up, not the PCs: (from a left of centre TorStar)
I wasn't referring to your politics, but the likely politics of the next Transportation Minister after Del Duca.

Not sure what the federal lack of streetcar funding for Toronto has to do with the the future at Metrolinx.
 
If I was to open a plant, I will open it in the GTA because shipping would be cheaper, finding skilled workers would be easier, much closer to the US (for orders and parts), much closer to the customers, better delivery routes (trucks, rail and water), etc. etc. etc. Even Siemens claim they'll open a plant in the GTA if they got the TTC streetcar order.

There's no hope for Northern Ontario. It's not going to develop and there's no market there. Only government incentives and low upkeep is keeping BBD there.

Shipping is the cheapest part of the entire operation. Siemens was only doing this to score political points.

If I would rank the costs in order of magnitude it would be:
- labour (and very important...non-union area)
- hydro
- land costs
- proximity to suppliers

If we wanted we could probably get a LRT from China (they produce some high quality ones) for 25%+ cheaper. Yes, i know there would be a loss of jobs. But the savings would pay EI for 3-5 years for each of the people laid off in Ontario (and by then they would have found another job)
 
I would be very surprise Siemens gets this work since they have 400+ cars on order now in the same time slot as Metrolinx.

Why would Siemens built a plant here when they have one in the US and there is no market after Metrolinx order??

There is more than Siemens out there that can build Metrolinx cars. What I don't know is the plant size for Alstom, CAF and Kawasaki in the US to say they can handle this order there. CAF is building 24+ cars for Boston and were late on KC, and Cincinnati 5-6 car order. Alstom will be building 34 more cars for Ottawa once work gets underway for Phase II.

CRRC (China) has no plant in the US and will only have one in Springfield Massachusetts this fall for building Boston Subway order.
 
We're talking past tense, not present. Before Siemen's pulled their bid, they had pledged to build a plant in Mississauga.
no they didn't....they pledge to build somewhere in the GTA and a mississauga paper, knowing they already had facilities in Mississauga, added 2 and 2 and got 5 and ran a story that the decision was about jobs in TB versus jobs in Mississauga.
 
no they didn't....they pledge to build somewhere in the GTA and a mississauga paper, knowing they already had facilities in Mississauga, added 2 and 2 and got 5 and ran a story that the decision was about jobs in TB versus jobs in Mississauga.
[...]
Siemens, which has its Canadian headquarters in Mississauga, says it would have no problem meeting the 25 per cent mark. It has been talking to the province about sites for an assembly plant employing about 200 workers plus engineers.

Its preference is to stay in the GTA. And on that score, Siemens has new statistics on its side: Three-month seasonally adjusted figures in March showed that at 8.8 per cent, the Toronto area's jobless rate has outpaced Thunder Bay's 8.6. [...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2009/04/18/a_streetcar_now_for_city_of_tomorrow.html

There's other references to "Mississauga" being the intended site, and a vacant factory was named. I'll dig it out later when I have more time.
 

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