Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[nfitz]

Thing is though, no one else uses ttc guage and since it's so rare it makes it more expensive.

No it doesn't. An inch on each wheel is minor. TTC's issue isn't the gauge - which is red herring. The issue is the primarily the tighter curves and steeper grades. And to a lesser extent the different voltage power system.

Recall that it in Bombardier's first (rejected) bid for TTC, they proposed a vehicle that couldn't do the tightest curves, and instead recommended that the city rebuild the tightest curves. There was no mention of changing the track gauge!

Meanwhile, TTC's PCCs and CLRVs have been re-gauged before for operating on other systems, and converted back as well.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Thing is though, no one else uses ttc guage and since it's so rare it makes it more expensive. Also to top it off the tight radius turns that is almost unique to toronto requires much more engineering than a typical tram in Europe

Yes, it's a unique gauge but it's not as big a deal as people, make it out to be in the long run, The plant in thunder bay is all TTC gauge and they even build standard gauge equipment there as well. As I said before every transit system makes customizations to the vehicles they buy, for example, some have LCD screens in them others have longer vehicles others decide to power three out of three truck while others only power tow of them. Yes the TTC requires some extra engineering to deal with tight curves, but any company that built them for us would have to deal with it because it isn't worth the money and time to shut down the streetcar network to regauge everything.

 

[steveintoronto]

Thing is though, no one else uses ttc guage and since it's so rare it makes it more expensive.

And a system that can't run-through onto others. This is a huge problem, and one that Metrolinx had to decide on with the LRVs. And they decided on 'standard gauge' for the self described reason. It's 'standard'!

Also to top it off the tight radius turns that is almost unique to toronto requires much more engineering than a typical tram in Europe

To the point again of 'not being able to buy off the shelf'.

Every city customizes their LRVs differently for how it will be used in their city,

Well duh! Then why didn't Toronto just order a standard model with wider wheelsets? Toronto has painted herself into a tight corner on a number of issues with her streetcars. Many of them are just being on the wrong side of fate, but many other cities and nations decided on standards generations ago. Toronto didn't, and here we are. Once again with a streetcar problem.

If there's an enduring lesson out of this, it's that any railed project that Toronto is involved in in future should be built to UIC standards. Unfortunately the one that was, the SRT, is being scrapped.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Thing is though, no one else uses ttc guage and since it's so rare it makes it more expensive. Also to top it off the tight radius turns that is almost unique to toronto requires much more engineering than a typical tram in Europe

Problem is, recently the TTC Commissioners voted and said "we're gonna expose the city to an whole millennium of this nonsense" by voting to keep the very special and unique TTC gauge.

 

[rbt]

Yes the TTC requires some extra engineering to deal with tight curves, but any company that built them for us would have to deal with it because it isn't worth the money and time to shut down the streetcar network to regauge everything.

Indeed. Widening curves would in most cases require elimination of sidewalks at intersections and in a few cases even eat into the buildings themselves. There is a profile of a rebuilt King & Dufferin to a 20m radius on page 18. NOTE, 25m radius is LRV standard, so even at 20m radius it would still require some vehicle customization.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2008/Aug_27_2008/Supplementary_Reports/LF_LRV_Procurement__.pdf

 

[W. K. Lis]

I agree. The TTC NEEDS TTC guage supposedly. But, if they used standard guage, they wouldn't require turning loops at terminals of the streetcar network, nor would they require a door on one side of each streetcar. Standard guage has shown it's benefits, but unfortunately, TTC commissioners still want a unique guage.

Wrong. The different gauges have nothing to do with turning loops. The TTC gauge is used on the subway, and they don't use loops at the station terminals.

Also, there are many, many different widths of track gauges around the world. See link.

While the TTC gauge is at 1,495 mm and "standard" gauge is at 1,435 mm, the Pennsylvania trolley gauge is at 1,588 mm, the Russian gauge is at 1,520 mm, the Washington Metro is at 1,429 mm, etc..

 

[W. K. Lis]

Indeed. Widening curves would in most cases require elimination of sidewalks at intersections and in a few cases even eat into the buildings themselves. There is a profile of a rebuilt King & Dufferin to a 20m radius on page 18. NOTE, 25m radius is LRV standard, so even at 20m radius it would still require some vehicle customization.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2008/Aug_27_2008/Supplementary_Reports/LF_LRV_Procurement__.pdf

Here's the image in question:

 

[nfitz]

Problem is, recently the TTC Commissioners voted and said "we're gonna expose the city to an whole millennium of this nonsense" by voting to keep the very special and unique TTC gauge.

This is simply not true. There was never any such vote (the last 20 years or so of TTC votes are on their website). And as several have stated above, TTC gauge is barely different from regular gauge. It does't create significant cost or design issues. Surely the different voltage is a much bigger issue?

 

[smallspy]

Surely the different voltage is a much bigger issue?

Considering how common 600Vdc is as an operating voltage for transit around the planet, I suspect that it's a non-issue.

Now, as a difference between the legacy fleet and the Transit City network, it is a bit more puzzling. But considering that many of the new-build networks have been built at 750Vdc, I suspect that it had more to do with favouring being compatible with everyone else than any requirement to interface with the existing network.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

Considering how common 600Vdc is as an operating voltage for transit around the planet, I suspect that it's a non-issue.

I'm surprised - everyone here a decade ago seemed to think that you'd not be able to easily modify the TTC Flexities to run on the 750Vdc network - and that was a bigger interoperability issue than re-gauging the wheels.

Not a design issue per se though ... It's the hills and corners that are the big design issue.

 

[raptor]

spotted a new Crosstown vehicle trucked down the 400 near the 401 today

 

[steveintoronto]

The different gauges have nothing to do with turning loops. The TTC gauge is used on the subway, and they don't use loops at the station terminals.

The "TTC gauge is used on the subway" has nothing to do with engineering acumen, and everything to do with sticking to compatibility within the cloistered TTC. It was a mistake in retrospect. The TTC subway never did end-up sharing track with the streetcars. The thinking at the time, to be lauded in one respect, was so that trackage in some areas could be shared. Unfortunately, it was a sop to the near future of the time, (as per Queen Street Subway et al) at the expense of looking beyond.

The TTC is stuck with an orphaned standard, and it offers no advantages, and a lot of disadvantages. To somehow claim this a 'choice' they made recently belies the grief it's caused Toronto radial, interurban and actual rail lines in the past. One rail line up to Sutton and associated spurs was re-gauged three times...all for the City's fear of 'invading' railway ne'er-do-wells. (Toronto had ownership of the line for some time, it serviced St Lawrence Market with market goods from the north) Toronto spent more time disassembling already established interurban/radial and electric railways than it did building it's own odd system at some times in the past. Many of these standard gauge interurbans were local carriers for railways. Guelph alone had three interconnections.

There was a standard gauge interurban that used to run in from the west along the Midtown alignment to Summerhill Station at one time. (details are elusive, but will link later when I find it again. It's missing from most maps. It looped just to the east of the old Summerhill Station.)

Stuck the TTC is, but there's absolutely nothing to celebrate about it. It's a blunder that's now legacy. And it complicates and limits the TTC's choices on a multitude of issues.

 

[nfitz]

Stuck the TTC is, but there's absolutely nothing to celebrate about it. It's a blunder that's now legacy. And it complicates and limits the TTC's choices on a multitude of issues.

A multitude of issues? I think you are incorrect here.

The only issue I see, is the need to re-gauge cars when transferred to and from the TTC. Though given how many times this has been done in the past, it's hardly a massive issue.

I can't think of any other substantive issues. Can you quantify them?

 

[steveintoronto]

Can you quantify them?

Inter-operability. Lack of. You might wish to ask Metrolinx how much of an issue that was...and still is.

 

[nfitz]

Inter-operability. Lack of. You might wish to ask Metrolinx how much of an issue that was...and still is.

How is this a massive issue? If necessary, you'd just re-gauge them.

Though I don't know who'd want them, with the lower voltage system, and doors only on one side.

Seems to me it's only a massive issue for transit fanatics - rather than operationally.

You said there's a multitude of issues. That's one issue, and there seems no basis to this. I assume you have more issues?