Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[OCCheetos]

More importantly
Since the flirt has been approved to purchase in Ottawa, this can no doubt pave the way for its bigger sister, kiss, for go rer

The Trillium line has always operated with permits/exemptions from regulations that let it use European DMUs. The FLIRT purchase isn't really anything out of the ordinary there.

I don't think this will have much, if any effect on any possible future KISS purchases by GO.

 

[steveintoronto]

For some reason, everyone reported that the new FLIRT trains will have 4 doors, but they'll actually have 8. The trains will be 4 cars long and have 2 doors per car (per side, that is).
Apparently only two cars could fit on the display board, so I guess that's why they ended up reporting 4 doors...

There's some confusion over this, perhaps there's some variations in the models?

– Three wide low-floor access doors per side

(one set each side per module)
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...727-4cdc-4adc-b34e-cf9d7bed1d1b/f3vd0716e.pdf

The design of the FLIRT can also be customised very flexibly in terms of seating capacity, passenger flow or interior design.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail/flirt160/

Here's a 160 with two sets of doors per carriage module:

But this one looks to be minus the diesel module, and an emu only.

Here's a bi-modal low floor:

 

[OCCheetos]

There's some confusion over this, perhaps there's some variations in the models?
(one set each side per module)
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...727-4cdc-4adc-b34e-cf9d7bed1d1b/f3vd0716e.pdf


https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail/flirt160/

Here's a 160 with two sets of doors per carriage module:
But this one looks to be minus the diesel module, and an emu only.

Here's a bi-modal low floor:

FLIRTs are highly configurable so I don't think Ottawa is buying any pre-existing configuration (like they have in the past for their other DMUs).
Varying door and interior arrangements exist for FLIRTs in use all over the world if you look at the FLIRT product page on Stadler's website.

8 doors was confirmed to me by someone on the Stage 2 extension team and if you look at the pictures in the tweet that was linked earlier you can see what I mean about only two cars being able to fit on the display board.

 

[steveintoronto]

FLIRTs are highly configurable so I don't think Ottawa is buying any pre-existing configuration (like they have in the past for their other DMUs).
Varying door and interior arrangements exist for FLIRTs in use all over the world if you look at the FLIRT product page on Stadler's website.

8 doors was confirmed to me by someone on the Stage 2 extension team and if you look at the pictures in the tweet that was linked earlier you can see what I mean about only two cars being able to fit on the display board.

Are you sure the "eight doors" isn't counting both sides?

These trains are 80 metres in length and are approximately double the passenger capacity of the current Trillium Line vehicles.

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/news/city-s...rillium-line-to-the-heart-of-riverside-south/

Make no mistake, I think these are exceptional and proven vehicles. The high-floor version might be perfect to expand Toronto's UPX into a full RER line, being convertible to electric rapidly by removing the diesel power module and ordered in the 25kV AC form or a 1500 VDC/25kVAC form so as to allow running through onto Metrolinx LRT routes, specifically the Crosstown. (The clash there would be platform height)

I have to question whether the diesel module is sufficient for running more than two car trains. I'll try and find specs for that later.

Addendum:

Searching, I now find what may be the crux of misunderstanding, I still can't find definitive reference, but did find this:

Meet the Stadler FLIRT Train

When the Stage 2 Trillium Line enters revenue service in 2021, it will use high efficiency diesel powered Stadler FLIRT vehicles:

• 80 metres in length and approximately double the passenger capacity of the current Trillium Line vehicles.
• Accessible entrances and cooperative seating areas
• Meets the highest rated international environmental and performance standards for its class of vehicle
• Offers the potential for future electric conversion.

https://cptdb.ca/topic/7639-goa-transit-news-info-etc/?page=124

According to the poster, it was a mailing from the City. I'll continue to dig later, not least to see whether a diesel module is offered with enough power to meet the claimed minimum "120 km/h" with it.

 

[OCCheetos]

Are you sure the "eight doors" isn't counting both sides?
View attachment 150337

These trains are 80 metres in length and are approximately double the passenger capacity of the current Trillium Line vehicles.

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/news/city-s...rillium-line-to-the-heart-of-riverside-south/

Make no mistake, I think these are exceptional and proven vehicles. The high-floor version might be perfect to expand Toronto's UPX into a full RER line, being convertible to electric rapidly by removing the diesel power module and ordered in the 25kV AC form or a 1500 VDC/25kVAC form so as to allow running through onto Metrolinx LRT routes, specifically the Crosstown. (The clash there would be platform height)

I have to question whether the diesel module is sufficient for running more than two car trains. I'll try and find specs for that later.

Addendum:

Searching, I now find what may be the crux of misunderstanding, I still can't find definitive reference, but did find this:
https://cptdb.ca/topic/7639-goa-transit-news-info-etc/?page=124

According to the poster, it was a mailing from the City. I'll continue to dig later, not least to see whether a diesel module is offered with enough power to meet the claimed minimum "120 km/h" with it.

After the announcement they sent out an email which contained this photo as well:

That's what led me to email the Stage 2 team to clear up the door count issue.

In the 2-car version above, if the train were to be 80m long, each car would be ~40m long which is as long as the trains currently used on the line. Those would be very long cars!

Edit: Here's the email they sent me in reply

 

[steveintoronto]

After the announcement they sent out an email which contained this photo as well:

That's what led me to email the Stage 2 team to clear up the door count issue.

In the 2-car version above, if the train were to be 80m long, each car would be ~40m long which is as long as the trains currently used on the line. Those would be very long cars!

Edit: Here's the email they sent me in reply

OK. Wow, that's now a 'train' rather than an 'LRT'. I also see from reading @Reecemartin #1683 link http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nglia-electro-diesels-under-construction.html that the diesel module is scalable for demand, from two to four prime motors. The more I read on FLIRTs, the more I can understand why they've become so popular.

Looking closely at the pics, it may be possible for a four passenger module consist (minus the diesel module) to fit the UPX platform length from first to last door. Obviously the ends of the consist beyond the doors would have to overhang the platform length. Anyone care to venture some specs and comparison on that? Intriguing...

 

[OCCheetos]

OK. Wow, that's now a 'train' rather than an 'LRT'. I also see from reading @Reecemartin #1683 link http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nglia-electro-diesels-under-construction.html that the diesel module is scalable for demand, from two to four prime motors. The more I read on FLIRTs, the more I can understand why they've become so popular.

Looking closely at the pics, it may be possible for a four passenger module consist (minus the diesel module) to fit the UPX platform length from first to last door. Obviously the ends of the consist beyond the doors would have to overhang the platform length. Anyone care to venture some specs and comparison on that? Intriguing...

It's "light" by North American standards.

I don't know how long the UP platforms are (I couldn't find anything about it), but the FLIRTs will be using 70m platforms in Ottawa, so there will be overhang at either end.

 

[robmausser]

OK. Wow, that's now a 'train' rather than an 'LRT'. I also see from reading @Reecemartin #1683 link http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nglia-electro-diesels-under-construction.html that the diesel module is scalable for demand, from two to four prime motors. The more I read on FLIRTs, the more I can understand why they've become so popular.

Looking closely at the pics, it may be possible for a four passenger module consist (minus the diesel module) to fit the UPX platform length from first to last door. Obviously the ends of the consist beyond the doors would have to overhang the platform length. Anyone care to venture some specs and comparison on that? Intriguing...

These won't work at UPX as they are low floor/door.

 

[robmausser]

It has arrived in Edmonton. https://twitter.com/Citadist/status/1017895066415742977?s=19

Man we should have ordered the 7 module versions for the Crosstown.

 

[steveintoronto]

These won't work at UPX as they are low floor/door.

I've mentioned the low floor/high floor model difference a number of times in prior posts.

Here's an instance of an operator using two specs for regional v. local:

Floor height Low-floor 800 mm 800 mm High-floor 1180 mm 1180 mm
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...cab-ff99-4b8b-af00-6abe96e13179/fnsb1008e.pdf

And one of many using only high-floor:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nglia-electro-diesels-under-construction.html

^As referenced twice in this string last two pages.

 

[OCCheetos]

These won't work at UPX as they are low floor/door.

One of the configurable aspects of most DMUs is floor height. Not sure if FLIRTs can be configured quite as high as the UPX trains, but it might be possible.

From what I could find, UPX trains have a floor height of around 1.3m while the Trillium Line trains are only 0.55m (in the low floor areas).

 

[steveintoronto]

One of the configurable aspects of most DMUs is floor height. Not sure if FLIRTs can be configured quite as high as the UPX trains, but it might be possible.

From what I could find, UPX trains have a floor height of around 1.3m while the Trillium Line trains are only 0.55m (in the low floor areas).

The UPX platform height is within inches of the UK height. This was a discussion point in the VIA string as per VIA high platforms v. GO high platforms. Any difference from the UK standard can be addressed in the design, and may just be a simple matter of adding shims in the suspension. Stadler are building for the North Am market and both high and low platforms:

http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2009/09/platform-height.html

"In Canada, only Montreal's Central Station and Quebec's Gare du Palais have high level platforms at 48 inches (1,219 mm) above top of rail."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_platform_height

Great Platform Height Debate: Subway-Style Level Boarding for GO ...
urbantoronto.ca › Forums › Transportation and Infrastructure

 

[steveintoronto]

Tomorrow's headline story for the London Times:

Companies at war over contract for Tube trains | Business | The Times
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/.../companies-at-war-over-contract-for-tube-trains-t9fmk2zb...
57 mins ago -

Companies at war over contract for Tube trains

Bombardier and Hitachi go to High Court

Robert Lea, Industrial Editor
July 23 2018, 12:01am, The Times

Bombardier and Hitachi are challenging TfL’s decision to give Siemens £1.5 billion of work to design and build London Underground trains for the Piccadilly lineSIEMENS


The British train manufacturing industry and the procurement of rolling stock by the public sector have been thrown into crisis after Bombardier and Hitachi launched a legal battle to prevent Transport for London awarding a £2.5 billion Tube contract to a German rival.

The lawsuit, triggered by papers filed at the High Court over the weekend, has implications for another separate high-profile train procurement — the £2.75 billion contract to build 54 225mph high-speed trains for the HS2 line between Birmingham and London, in which Bombardier and Hitachi are also in competition with Siemens.

[....]

 

[SaugeenJunction]

While driving along the 410 northbound, at around 410 and the Kitchener GO line, I noticed that the future Alstom LRV plant has massive Alstom signs affixed to it. Glad to see it coming along, sorry couldn’t grab pictures.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

In flexity news here's a glimpse of Edmonton's version


https://globalnews.ca/news/4357290/edmonton-light-rail-vehicle-valley-line-lrt/

@Reecemartin you'll be fascinated to know Edmonton chose LCDs instead of LED displays looking at the video