London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[ShonTron]

It looks like this thread is going around and around and around without any resolution. The discussion has gone way beyond anything going on (or not) in London. I'll close this thread for a few days.

 

[micheal_can]

... and it is back open.

I think if we were sitting around chatting about this, we would see how we all have valid points. We would also see the flaws in our own positions.

I wonder if we can agree that something will be better than doing nothing.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I wonder if we can agree that something will be better than doing nothing.

I actually think the level of, shall we call it passion, about this comes from folks thinking that no, the alternative they dislike isn’t worth doing at all.

And frankly, agreeing with that is why I’m only quasi present here… I DO think the LRT proposal was better, I DO see a decent case for BRT and I DO care a lot more that something get done than about mode.

 

[micheal_can]

I actually think the level of, shall we call it passion, about this comes from folks thinking that no, the alternative they dislike isn’t worth doing at all.

And frankly, agreeing with that is why I’m only quasi present here… I DO think the LRT proposal was better, I DO see a decent case for BRT and I DO care a lot more that something get done than about mode.

I am of your boat.It will be interesting to see if most will be the same as us.

 

[ARG1]

And frankly, agreeing with that is why I’m only quasi present here… I DO think the LRT proposal was better, I DO see a decent case for BRT and I DO care a lot more that something get done than about mode.

As always the missing variable is feasibility. You can have a proposal that puts a bunch of subways under every major street, but unless there's actually a way for that proposal to get shovels in the ground, its no better than not having a proposal. There have been a ton of proposals in Montreal about what to do with the Deux-Montagnes Line and YUL before the REM, some of them were probably better than the REM, but REM was the one that actually allowed shovels to enter the ground. Same thing with REM B and the Pink Line, the latter probably has a better alignment and serves more people better, but the former actually has a chance of getting built.

 

[ssiguy2]

I am excited about London's BRT. This is not some fuzzy proposal but a system that is already under construction. A good part of the "Downtown Loop" is already done and it is essential to get built before the other sections come online.

People lament not getting a line to Western and yes that is unfortunate but it will come. The Eastern line does, however, go right to Fanshawe college. As per normal the colleges don't get the same respect as the universities but going to Fanshawe is a big deal. Fanshawe is one of the biggest colleges in the country with a staggering 21,000 full time students at it's main campus and the BRT will connect it with the other 3 campuses...........2 downtown and one along the southern BRT route and Fanshawe is home to 6,000 international students who are very transit dependent. An extension from there to the airport is in the long-term plan serving not only the airport but thousands of industrial jobs near it.

The Southern route goes right to the doorstep of London's third largest employer {after Western and Fanshawe}..........the London Health Sciences Centre. It also continues south into a more working class area with high transit ridership and terminates at White Oaks Mall which is the second biggest mall in the city. St.Thomas Transit is hoping to finally get a regular bus service to the city as it is growing very quickly as a commuter city and the northern terminus would be White Oaks and then people would transfer onto the BRT. Again the city plans to have local lines from there service the huge industrial employment areas along Exeter Road and south of the 401.

These 2 lines were well thought out not only capturing high density and mostly working class ridership areas but also massive employment centres.

 

[afransen]

Personally, I think BRT can scale quite a way. Upgrading in a narrow sense to LRT doesn't IMO make much sense in most cases. When you are spending that kind of money on rail, it should be entirely or substantially grade separated to ensure reliability, speed and low opex through automation.

I suspect BRT will become more compelling over time as the opex picture tilts in favour of buses with electrification and automation (automating bus operation can't be more than 10 years out).

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I’ll grant that there is a certain attractiveness to the proposition that tramway style systems have very limited application in genuine new build, and that it makes more sense to build BRT until such time as actual light metro goes in (and on a 2050 horizon I can see the potential for that level of service on the north and east corridors in London).

With that said, I do have doubts about near term bus automation, and a strong suspicion that surface rail can be automated NOW if someone would commit to funding it.

 

[afransen]

I’ll grant that there is a certain attractiveness to the proposition that tramway style systems have very limited application in genuine new build, and that it makes more sense to build BRT until such time as actual light metro goes in (and on a 2050 horizon I can see the potential for that level of service on the north and east corridors in London).

With that said, I do have doubts about near term bus automation, and a strong suspicion that surface rail can be automated NOW if someone would commit to funding it.

I really struggle to see how automating a bus on a BRT route is different than automating an LRV. The only difference is lane keeping, which is a trivial, solved problem.

 

[micheal_can]

I really struggle to see how automating a bus on a BRT route is different than automating an LRV. The only difference is lane keeping, which is a trivial, solved problem.

The same as why we don't have AI driven cars. At least with automated rail systems, the train should stay on the tracks and not crash. Key word is ... should.

 

[ARG1]

The same as why we don't have AI driven cars. At least with automated rail systems, the train should stay on the tracks and not crash. Key word is ... should.

The difference of course is most automated rail systems are fully grade separated or have 100% priority. Automating an LRV that runs on street is just as difficult as a bus.

 

[ssiguy2]

Good news, the Queen Street section of the Downtown Loop and the first portion of the Eastern Leg will begin construction very soon. This will be far less problematic than the downtown King section because there is very little retail or commercial along either of those routes.

The city wants to basically do 2 blocks at a time for both sections as the city is digging up the roads and replacing all the 100 year old sewer line along the routes at the same time.

 

[Haljackey]

Well London's population is up quite a bit over the last census. Question is what is the city going to to do to address this growth? The 2030 transportation plan was supposed to cater to growth predictions made in the 2010s. However we're now growing roughly twice as fast as past censuses (ignore 1991, that is high because London's city limits grew and annexed some surrounding towns).

Will this be a wake up call to build the missing BRT connections- and plan for some ehnancements/extensions? We have a municipal election in October and how London manages this growth is going to be a major campaign issue. Transit is going to be the primary way London can build it's way out of congestion, but popular opinion is still pretty car focused. There could be a major change in perception coming... perhaps very soon.

 

[ericmacm]

View attachment 379508

Well London's population is up quite a bit over the last census. Question is what is the city going to to do to address this growth? The 2030 transportation plan was supposed to cater to growth predictions made in the 2010s. However we're now growing roughly twice as fast as past censuses (ignore 1991, that is high because London's city limits grew and annexed some surrounding towns).

Will this be a wake up call to build the missing BRT connections- and plan for some ehnancements/extensions? We have a municipal election in October and how London manages this growth is going to be a major campaign issue. Transit is going to be the primary way London can build it's way out of congestion, but popular opinion is still pretty car focused. There could be a major change in perception coming... perhaps very soon.

The city isn't going to do anything in its current state. I'd like to see Metrolinx start to get more involved directly in London's transit planning.

I can also say as someone who will be moving to London in a few months that I am excited to vote for a transit-friendly candidate in said municipal election.

 

[micheal_can]

The city isn't going to do anything in its current state. I'd like to see Metrolinx start to get more involved directly in London's transit planning.

I can also say as someone who will be moving to London in a few months that I am excited to vote for a transit-friendly candidate in said municipal election.

I wonder if that is the reason GO is being extended. Maybe it is a way for Metrolinx to sneak in and do some good.