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Lifeless Bay St and University Ave

Yes, I suppose some would consider the UofT campus to be lifeless and dead because it isn't lined with retail. Ditto Queen's Park. I'm not sure this is what Jacobs had in mind.

I don't think anyone would consider UofT campus to be lifeless and dead. There are students everywhere, sitting, reading, talking to one another. It's full of life because people have a reason to be there and spaces they like to spend time in. Streets need destinations, even if it means just really nice open spaces where you wouldn't mind spending a few extra minutes. Retail, however, happens to be one of those convenient solutions to draw people to a street.

The one thing Bay St does right between Grosvenor and Wellesley is the extra wide sidewalks! It's an expressway for pedestrians!

And I agree with other posters, Bay St is far from dead for foot traffic (esp. compared to American cities) but has a long way to be like Yonge.

It's not that Bay street doesn't have foot traffic, it's that people use bay street to get from point A to point B, but rarely linger. If the trees between Wellesley and Grosvenor ever live long enough to grow beyond twigs, that could really help create a pleasant pedestrian space rather than a windswept pedestrian expressway. Benches would help as well.
 
I believe that the median - planted nicely in the summer, rarely used by pedestrians because it takes the form of disconnected "islands", pretty to look at as you drive past - came about as a result of that very car culture. But by reducing the number of lanes of traffic, killing the median, expanding the sidewalks and encouraging cafes and more pedestrian-friendly uses we can transform University into a more engaging model.
When I used to work on University Ave. those islands were populated at lunchtime by by people who packed their lunches or bought at some of the small cafés nearby. At other times they were empty though.
 
I walked along Bay between Dundas and Bloor today around 3pm and made a point to check out how busy it was, and there was a very decent amount of pedestrian traffic IMO - not at Yonge St. levels of course, but for a Sunday afternoon it was far from dead or deserted.

If you pay more attention, most people (including me sometimes) are just passing by because Yonge is too crowded. Hardly anyone spent time on Bay st itself, because as I mentioned, there is almost nothing to see or do on that stretch.
Today I walked with my friend on Bay from college all the way to Yorkville, simply because we need to get to Yorkville and Bay is the most direct way to arrive there.
 
When I used to work on University Ave. those islands were populated at lunchtime by by people who packed their lunches or bought at some of the small cafés nearby. At other times they were empty though.

Or worse than empty--a hangout for hobos.
 
I believe that the median - planted nicely in the summer, rarely used by pedestrians because it takes the form of disconnected "islands", pretty to look at as you drive past - came about as a result of that very car culture. But by reducing the number of lanes of traffic, killing the median, expanding the sidewalks and encouraging cafes and more pedestrian-friendly uses we can transform University into a more engaging model.
This is what I'd like to see too, except I don't think reducing the number of lanes is really necessary. You only have to look at the boulevards in Paris to see how a monster street with 10 lanes of traffic can still be a pedestrian magnet. The median space added to the sidewalks would be much more useful for pedestrians. It'll never compete with a Champs Elysees or a Gran Via simply because of the buldings along it, but it can be improved.
 
I think that Bay Street north of Queen has potential to be a vibrant round-the-clock street. The density is high and there are many spaces for commercial uses by the sidewalk. So much of its built form is still relatively new that the rents for retail are probably too high to encourage many entrepreneurs from opening up the kinds of businesses that would attract more pedestrian activity. The rents will probably become more reasonable as the buildings age and the built form becomes more diversified. Older condos may create new business spaces out of dated amenity spaces to rent out as pedestrian activity increases. It will be important to create an urban design plan to give the public realm a greater sense of unity, predictability, and coherence that will make pedestrians more comfortable walking along Bay, and a design good enough to attract them in greater numbers. Animating public art may be important.

University Avenue is first and foremost a ceremonial route. Theoretically, it has a lot of different uses--financial to healthcare to government--but it's mostly 9-5 users meaning it becomes quite dead after hours. To enliven it, you need more diverse uses which stay open after 5 and will attract different people like bars, drug stores, galleries, and private outdoor terraces where people can relax over beer or coffee near the street. I think it would be fun to shut a part of it down on weekend nights and have dance parties aimed at different demographics. As for aesthetics, the monuments feel like they belong there, even if the median is designed very poorly for pedestrians and should be overhauled to allow continuous walking. I'd like to see a public realm overhaul with improved non-concrete slab sidewalks, more sophisticated street and sidewalk lighting, more mature trees planted, and the sense of monumentality enhanced with soaring columns and sculptures. Perhaps construct a roundabout at a major intersection with a massive monument as a southern terminating vista and as a new vista for an east-west street. But planners should concentrate, too, on encouraging more uses outside of 9-5 hours and on weekends. The province should get involved in an improvement project too. After all, it's the ceremonial route for Ontario's capital in front of its house of democracy.

Admittedly, Queen's Park is another matter altogether, but for University Avenue's sake, I would also like to see some work towards restoring the vista by trimming the trees in front of it. The same goes for Osgoode Hall, whose east wing is supposed to terminate views of York Street, but which is now completely obscured by trees. Yet if we want one of our streets to join the elite grand boulevards of the world, I think Spadina has more potential because it also has the grand scale, but is already a vibrant mixed-use street. I explain my vision for it here.
 
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a city needs quiet and crowded areas. There are many on this forum at many times have trouble understanding this.

I know for a fact that many people who live inside the downtown core enjoy the opportunity walk down an empty street not full of people, or live in a condo building that is not located on a busy street.

University Avenue is like every other CBD and will have little activity during off-work hours. There are efficiencies and inefficiencies in having areas like this. It is not all good but it is far from bad. Toronto does not have many streets like University Ave, which was designed as the result of the philosophy of an era. It serves its purpose.

Fully mixed use communities have many problems of its own. Ask anyone from a country like China and you'll hear many of them describing how great it is to live in Toronto's quietness, even inside the downtown core. Not everyone always want to see tons of people everywhere they go.
 
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a city needs quiet and crowded areas. There are many on this forum at many times have trouble understanding this.

I know for a fact that many people who live inside the downtown core enjoy the opportunity walk down an empty street not full of people, or live in a condo building that is not located on a busy street.

University Avenue is like every other CBD and will have little activity during off-work hours. There are efficiencies and inefficiencies in having areas like this. It is not all good but it is far from bad. Toronto does not have many streets like University Ave, which was designed as the result of the philosophy of an era. It serves its purpose.

Fully mixed use communities have many problems of its own. Ask anyone from a country like China and you'll hear many of them describing how great it is to live in Toronto's quietness, even inside the downtown core. Not everyone always want to see tons of people everywhere they go.

But why should prominent and central streets that take up so much space be lifeless? I'm all for having a mix of quiet and lively spaces in a city, but this street will never be quiet with all the cars. With all the space it takes up, you might as well have the sidewalks filled with people. It's spaces like these that should be vibrant, leaving the quiet for certain side streets, parks, and gardens.
 
I'm with UD2. Bay Street is a nice complement/counterpoint to Yonge which is little more than a block away. Bay is largely residential north of Queen and should be maintained as a 'relatively' quiet space. If anything I would like to see it developed as a park-like avenue with benches, canopies of trees and planters (similar to Bloor) that would encourage local residents to linger or that would provide for a pleasant north/south pedestrian/biking alternative to Yonge. No doubt smaller scale businesses with a 'local'/neighbourhoody-feel would soon follow (corner cafes, bakeries, flower shops etc)...

As for University I would like to see it kept ceremonial, and even more so. John Street and Spadina are far more obvious as lively and diverse urban thoroughfares and each are better candidates than University which serves as a more formal arterial in a more 'serious' part of town (hospitals, legislature, University etc).

At the end of the day we do not need every major thoroughfare to be lined with retail and other commercial uses, which may only eventually detract from the ones that are!
 
I'm with UD2. Bay Street is a nice complement/counterpoint to Yonge which is little more than a block away. Bay is largely residential north of Queen and should be maintained as a 'relatively' quiet space. If anything I would like to see it developed as a park-like avenue with benches, canopies of trees and planters (similar to Bloor) that would encourage local residents to linger or that would provide for a pleasant north/south pedestrian/biking alternative to Yonge. No doubt smaller scale businesses with a 'local'/neighbourhoody-feel would soon follow (corner cafes, bakeries, flower shops etc)...

Bay Street will evolve in the coming years, for the better I'm sure in terms of retail and walk-ability but for now it's not a very pleasant place to sit and enjoy a coffee, a slice, to people watch etc., it's way too noisy with traffic noise making it very unpleasant. Try it sometime and try to think of what it's like there vs. sitting on College West, Queen West, WQW, Church, Parliament etc. Jarvis Street fails in this regard too, and it'll only get worse again once the bike lanes are gone and the place reverts back to something just short of a highway with aggressive drivers speeding up and zig-zagging in and out of traffic. We tried the Honeybee patio this summer at Jarvis & Cawthra (n. of Wellesley) which has great food & service, but the traffic noise made us eager to move on after we finished eating.
 
Bay Street will evolve in the coming years, for the better I'm sure in terms of retail and walk-ability but for now it's not a very pleasant place to sit and enjoy a coffee, a slice, to people watch etc., it's way too noisy with traffic noise making it very unpleasant. Try it sometime and try to think of what it's like there vs. sitting on College West, Queen West, WQW, Church, Parliament etc. Jarvis Street fails in this regard too, and it'll only get worse again once the bike lanes are gone and the place reverts back to something just short of a highway with aggressive drivers speeding up and zig-zagging in and out of traffic. We tried the Honeybee patio this summer at Jarvis & Cawthra (n. of Wellesley) which has great food & service, but the traffic noise made us eager to move on after we finished eating.
I used to work near College and Bay. Bay Street has a lot of of people at lunchtime in the summer in that area. Not as busy as Yonge Street, but not as obnoxiously crowded as south Yonge either. On Yonge near there, there are a lot of people going in and out of stores and restaurants, and a lot of people walking, but there is essentially nobody lingering. It's just busy, busy, busy. OTOH, on Bay people actually linger by College Park and eat their lunch.

Yeah, it's nice to sit on College West or Queen West for a coffee but then again they're a completely different type of retail mix, with no real residential directly on College, and they're complete disasters in terms of traffic flow.
 
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I think that Bay Street north of Queen has potential to be a vibrant round-the-clock street. The density is high and there are many spaces for commercial uses by the sidewalk. So much of its built form is still relatively new that the rents for retail are probably too high to encourage many entrepreneurs from opening up the kinds of businesses that would attract more pedestrian activity. The rents will probably become more reasonable as the buildings age and the built form becomes more diversified. Older condos may create new business spaces out of dated amenity spaces to rent out as pedestrian activity increases. It will be important to create an urban design plan to give the public realm a greater sense of unity, predictability, and coherence that will make pedestrians more comfortable walking along Bay, and a design good enough to attract them in greater numbers. Animating public art may be important.

University Avenue is first and foremost a ceremonial route. Theoretically, it has a lot of different uses--financial to healthcare to government--but it's mostly 9-5 users meaning it becomes quite dead after hours. To enliven it, you need more diverse uses which stay open after 5 and will attract different people like bars, drug stores, galleries, and private outdoor terraces where people can relax over beer or coffee near the street. I think it would be fun to shut a part of it down on weekend nights and have dance parties aimed at different demographics. As for aesthetics, the monuments feel like they belong there, even if the median is designed very poorly for pedestrians and should be overhauled to allow continuous walking. I'd like to see a public realm overhaul with improved non-concrete slab sidewalks, more sophisticated street and sidewalk lighting, more mature trees planted, and the sense of monumentality enhanced with soaring columns and sculptures. Perhaps construct a roundabout at a major intersection with a massive monument as a southern terminating vista and as a new vista for an east-west street. But planners should concentrate, too, on encouraging more uses outside of 9-5 hours and on weekends. The province should get involved in an improvement project too. After all, it's the ceremonial route for Ontario's capital in front of its house of democracy.

Admittedly, Queen's Park is another matter altogether, but for University Avenue's sake, I would also like to see some work towards restoring the vista by trimming the trees in front of it. The same goes for Osgoode Hall, whose east wing is supposed to terminate views of York Street, but which is now completely obscured by trees. Yet if we want one of our streets to join the elite grand boulevards of the world, I think Spadina has more potential because it also has the grand scale, but is already a vibrant mixed-use street. I explain my vision for it here.

I recall when I came to Toronto 11 years ago from NYC. Downtown after 6pm was a ghost town with parking lots everywhere. It is really nice to see it developing and having people walking around. Bay street is particularly quiet on Sat and Sunday am/ afternoon. Almost doesnt feel like a big city at all. As more density comes into Toronto, we will see people sprawling out onto the streets. We have come so far already, just a few more years and Toronto will truly arrive.
 
a city needs quiet and crowded areas. There are many on this forum at many times have trouble understanding this.

I know for a fact that many people who live inside the downtown core enjoy the opportunity walk down an empty street not full of people, or live in a condo building that is not located on a busy street.

University Avenue is like every other CBD and will have little activity during off-work hours. There are efficiencies and inefficiencies in having areas like this. It is not all good but it is far from bad. Toronto does not have many streets like University Ave, which was designed as the result of the philosophy of an era. It serves its purpose.

Fully mixed use communities have many problems of its own. Ask anyone from a country like China and you'll hear many of them describing how great it is to live in Toronto's quietness, even inside the downtown core. Not everyone always want to see tons of people everywhere they go.

Bay St lacks retail and all the life convenience, but it is by no means "quiet". It could be if the street is pedestrian only. Do you want to live on a street where cars and trucks pass 24/7?
Ask anyone from Paris you would appreciate neighbourhoods dotted with dozens of cafes, restaurants, patisseries and flower shops. That's called "quality of life". Something like Bay street will never match.
 
Bay street is particularly quiet on Sat and Sunday am/ afternoon. Almost doesnt feel like a big city at all. As more density comes into Toronto, we will see people sprawling out onto the streets. We have come so far already, just a few more years and Toronto will truly arrive.


That's because Toronto is in fact not a "big city" as of today yet. IMO. It is the biggest in Canada, or the 5th biggest in North American in terms of population, but honestly it has trouble giving a big city vibe outside the relatively tiny financial districts. It becomes "big" only due to the amalgamation of nearby suburbs such Scarbro and Etobicoke. Smaller cities such as Boston and Montreal both somehow manager to look bigger than Toronto. Quite a few of my friends have commented that Toronto feels much smaller than they had thought it to be (Toronto usually gives the wrong impression of something like Chicago on paper).
 
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Yet when you compare the number of people walking around the downtown core, Toronto puts both Boston and Chicago to shame, especially after dark. The only cities that I've seen in North America that have livelier streets are NYC and maybe Montreal. Let's not forget, Toronto's street vibe seems to be growing on a daily basis too, with all the crazy development.
 
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