Lifeless Bay St and University Ave

[Red October]

North America is indeed a continent and is made up of 23 countries, not 2 as some people have suggested.

Anybody who says otherwise should open a book once in a while (or go to school).

 

[Danielinthecity]

True

Short blocks are key. The east-west streets have them, the north-south streets don't (generally speaking of course).

That's true too...also the shorter the blocks, the more intersections...and if pedestrian oriented, they become focal points themselves...

 

[Tewder]

No, I really do think that the low-rise, detached home on a lot is an inferior urban form to the midrise apartment building that fills the property line. Toronto just happens to be the most vibrant city that has that particular form [...]

I don't disagree that higher density is better, even if the centrality of low-rise residential in Toronto is part of its charm and uniqueness. Many outerlaying neighbourhoods in London share this same pattern by the way, that of a central vibrant 'High' street surrounded by detached or semi-detached residential...

Toronto just happens to be the most vibrant city that has that particular form; we've hit a glass ceiling, though, and while the East Village and, say, Queen Street West may have the same stores, one is a linear street with some houses jutting off like tines of a comb, and the other is a neighbourhood where that pedestrian vibrancy extends in all directions.

Queen Street doesn't exist alone in a vacuum, as you suggest, and it isn't a lone street of activity in an otherwise wasteland of low-rise residential. The reality is that pedestrian vibrancy extends off of Queen along many north/south side streets (Spadina, Peter, John, Ossington, etc), connecting other nearby vibrant - albeit low-rise - thoroughfares... and busy areas along King, Dundas or College, among others, are only walking distance away from Queen. The fabric that knits all of this together is mixed, including low-rise detached residential, mid-rise residential, industrial/former industrial and commercial. The same can be said of Yonge Street or Bloor for that matter... all of which makes Toronto feel very urban, even if the built form isn't consistently as high as that of some other very urban cities.

 

[MisterF]

kkgg - someone from Shanghai or Tokyo might not consider Toronto "very large", but someone from Stockholm or Auckland sure would. Or even someone from Houston or Milan. It's all relative. In any case, I think we can all agree that Toronto is making huge strides in terms of urbanism and is changing faster than just about anywhere else in the industrialized world. Now if only the infrastructure could keep up.

 

[Thanos]

That might be your definition. But the English language is based on common usage. Any relevant dictionary clearly defines North America as 1 continent and South America as a second. A quick look at a Canadian dictionary shows the definition of the Americas as being the New World, consisting of the continents of North America and South America.

I don't know why you say that is the moon that shines so bright.

The rest of the world outside North America, including many English speaking nations, consider the world to be 6 continents. There's a reason why the Olympic symbol has 5 rings and that is to represent the 5 continents who participate in the Olympics. The sixth continent being Antarctica which has zero population and no established government.
Nowadays US scientists have separated North and South America as 2 continents. However, at the same time they have grouped Europe and Asia as one continent because it is one landmass. Which makes no sense because North and South America are one landmass as well.

Back on topic.
Would it be safe to assume that a Financial District BIA might be willing to work with the city and province to rethink University Ave? From what I'm hearing the BIA may be official by early 2012.

 

[Marko]

The rest of the world outside North America, including many English speaking nations, consider the world to be 6 continents. There's a reason why the Olympic symbol has 5 rings and that is to represent the 5 continents who participate in the Olympics. The sixth continent being Antarctica which has zero population and no established government.
Nowadays US scientists have separated North and South America as 2 continents. However, at the same time they have grouped Europe and Asia as one continent because it is one landmass. Which makes no sense because North and South America are one landmass as well.

Back on topic.
Would it be safe to assume that a Financial District BIA might be willing to work with the city and province to rethink University Ave? From what I'm hearing the BIA may be official by early 2012.

Some parts of the world may teach there are 5 or 6, but you happen to be on a Canadian based website where it is universally taught there are 7 continents, and that the Americas is a generalized name to cover 2 separate North and South American continents.

Funny, when proven that your claims are not exactly true everywhere, that you then try to dismiss it and plead to go back to the original topic that you were a key part in diverting to begin with. US scientists didn't just recently split up the America's and no one considers Europe and Asia to be one continent by any definition other than it is a continuous geological landmass, unfortunately that is not the only way the continents are defined.

And since when does an athletic organization such as the IOC become proof as to how many continents there are? When you're Greek, I guess...

 

[Thanos]

Some parts of the world may teach there are 5 or 6, but you happen to be on a Canadian based website where it is universally taught there are 7 continents, and that the Americas is a generalized name to cover 2 separate North and South American continents.

Prior to WW2 Canada and the US went by the assumption that there were 6 continents and NA & SA were one continent. There are still many Canadians who consider it to be 1 continent.

Funny, when proven that your claims are not exactly true everywhere, that you then try to dismiss it and plead to go back to the original topic that you were a key part in diverting to begin with.

Please provide a link indicating past examples. As for the pleading to go back on topic please indicate where this happened. Every time someone goes off topic are they are not permitted to go back on topic? You've done this a million times in the Rob Ford threads so don't play the innocent card.

US scientists didn't just recently split up the America's and no one considers Europe and Asia to be one continent by any definition other than it is a continuous geological landmass, unfortunately that is not the only way the continents are defined.

70 years ago is not exactly that long ago. There never was a definition of continents and there never will be.

And since when does an athletic organization such as the IOC become proof as to how many continents there are? When you're Greek, I guess...

What does one's ethnicity have to do with anything or is that your ignorant side coming out.

 

[MisterF]

If North and South America are one continent because they're one landmass then by that definition Europe, Asia and Africa are one continent as well. But what does any of this have to do with Bay and University?

 

[Irishmonk]

What definition of London are you using to get over 12 million? It's hard to find one that's over 9 million!

From wiki (bless their...er, our hearts)

"The Greater London Urban Area is the second-largest in the EU with a population of 8,278,251,[20] while London's metropolitan area is the largest in the EU with an estimated total population of between 12 million[21] and 14 million."

Now to get back on topic:

Bay street is a missed opportunity, no doubt. It's a shame the city couldn't get its act together and impose some kind of design vision when all the condos were going up. Right now it feels like Yonge north of Sheppard.

Anyone know if there's a BIA for upper Bay? Any kind of thorough rethink would probably require one.

 

[kkgg7]

From wiki (bless their...er, our hearts)

Now to get back on topic:

Bay street is a missed opportunity, no doubt. It's a shame the city couldn't get its act together and impose some kind of design vision when all the condos were going up. Right now it feels like Yonge north of Sheppard.

Anyone know if there's a BIA for upper Bay? Any kind of thorough rethink would probably require one.

Right. It is an obvious fact that Bay street is a big failure. However, for some reason, many Torontonians tend to have this "we are fine, there is nothing wrong with how things are" mentality. When I said Bay st is lifeless, several members counter argued that they saw many pedestrians (passing by) on a certain day. What bothers me most is not Toronto's urban problems - even the greatest cities have their own issues, it is such "we are fine" mentality that is frustrating.

For example, when I say Toronto's subway system is pathetic, I used the see many Torontonians immediately argued that TTC is cleaner than NYC subway, safer than Chicago, that it is the "second most extensive in North America", we have so many buses and streetcars etc, as if our subway is not bad at all. Who are we trying to kid?

When I say Toronto's waterfront is a complete disaster compared with Chicago's. These people can't wait to argue we have more life on the street, and we are so much more livable etc. Those may be true, but does this make the disastrous waterfront any better? Not at all. It is still by definition messy and ugly. Using the good things to justify the drawbacks is pathetic.

When we have a problem, we have a problem. Face it. Bay street, considering is very central location, is basically a urban failure. The fact there are 20 pedestrians happening to walking by last Sunday afternoon doesn't change this fact. There is no life on this street, and when does anyone remember last time you did anything on Bay street (except walking by or have a work lunch?). For residents/tourists, there is basically nothing to see or do between Gerrard and Bloor. It is pretty much dead, like a suburban street which doesn't matter to the city whatsoever.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

For something to be defined as a problem, it requires a presupposed ideal. Just what is wrong with not having anything to do on Bay Street between Gerrard and Bloor? Using loaded language like failure, disaster, etc. suggest something normative.

AoD

 

[adma]

This is all getting to be like deeming her lacking

compared to

 

[Irishmonk]

^I'll take Miss Mushaboom over Jesus-loving-bimbo-boob anyday.

 

[Red October]

Every city has quiet institutional streets. Ever been on 1st Avenue north of 14 Street, or Bowery Avenue in New York? Just 2 examples of institutional dead streets at night. Ever been on the majority of streets in the Loop in Chicago after 8? Other than Michigan Avenue they're pretty dead too.

 

[Tewder]

Agreed. Why does this need to be repeated ad nauseum? Bay Street, for a relatively short span north of Queen and south of Bloor is largely residential.... YET only one block away from one of Toronto's most busiest thoroughfares (Yonge Street). How does this make Bay Street a 'failure'? Could it be better? Absolutely! Does 'better' mean more retail and more 'things to do'? Not necessarily!

As for criticisms of Toronto in general I think we need to be able to discuss issues frankly, warts and all so to speak... BUT we can't be churlish and indignant just because somebody disagrees with our perspective. Maybe some do prefer the TTC despite its size. Maybe some find our waterfront more 'interesting' despite its more rough and flawed condition. Maybe some prefer the centrality of Toronto's low-rise residential areas to other built forms? Who knows? Some here would even defend the messy urbanism of Toronto's hydro poles and broken sidewalks! Clearly they are deluded but there you go