dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
... & (downtown) Queen east/west, College, Sherbourne, Spadina, Jarvis, John, Liberty Village, CityPlace, Queen's Quay... to name a few more
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Lifeless Bay St and University Ave
- Thread starter kkgg7
- Start date
... & (downtown) Queen east/west, College, Sherbourne, Spadina, Jarvis, John, Liberty Village, CityPlace, Queen's Quay... to name a few more
Thanos
Active Member
No, most of those streets are fine. But your sarcasm has been duly noted.
Softee
Active Member
I walked along Bay between Dundas and Bloor today around 3pm and made a point to check out how busy it was, and there was a very decent amount of pedestrian traffic IMO - not at Yonge St. levels of course, but for a Sunday afternoon it was far from dead or deserted.
pman
Senior Member
I agree University needs more pedestrian space and fewer car lanes. But rather than expanding the currently underused central median, the City should consider closing either the northbound or southbound lanes and turning them into a pedestrian space, linked to the central median. There would be enough space on the other side for two traffic lanes in each direction.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Personally the main problem IMO is there is no reason to linger along University Ave - and if you do in spite of the boredom, it's a pretty unpleasant experience due to exposure to the elements. What can really improve the situation are:
a) Consistent and continuous wind shelter along the entire University Ave. frontage
b) Streetscaping - something like Bloor St. hard landscaping plus a focus on mature trees
c) Occupation of this "space" with uses (patios, hot food stands, etc)
d) Better "flow through" from surrounding neighourhoods - in many ways the avenue serves as an "edge" that repels.
e) High density mixed land uses.
AoD
a) Consistent and continuous wind shelter along the entire University Ave. frontage
b) Streetscaping - something like Bloor St. hard landscaping plus a focus on mature trees
c) Occupation of this "space" with uses (patios, hot food stands, etc)
d) Better "flow through" from surrounding neighourhoods - in many ways the avenue serves as an "edge" that repels.
e) High density mixed land uses.
AoD
Chuck
Senior Member
While it is true that there are many obvious ways to improve the street scape on these two streets, I wouldn't consider Bay or University to be an absolute failure just because they have less pedestrian traffic. Until Toronto has a population density comparable to Manhattan, we will not be able to support block after block of retail strips on every major street in the city.
Within the downtown area, retail is thriving up and down Yonge, Church, Spadina, Queen, King, College, Dundas, and Bloor. I would say that by North American standards, this is all but exceptional save for perhaps 2 or 3 other cities. As for University and Bay, just give the city time to continue growing and everything will work out just fine. Having said that, more retail should certainly be encouraged.
Within the downtown area, retail is thriving up and down Yonge, Church, Spadina, Queen, King, College, Dundas, and Bloor. I would say that by North American standards, this is all but exceptional save for perhaps 2 or 3 other cities. As for University and Bay, just give the city time to continue growing and everything will work out just fine. Having said that, more retail should certainly be encouraged.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Exceptional indeed, my concern lies with the deteriorating conditions of many of the 19th & early 20th century buildings along many of these streets including the one's I listed above. Queen's Quay, Liberty Village, City Place and the like simply need some time to mature, evolve and find themselves within the city.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
I don't mind closing down smaller streets like John, but closing down University and making it a giant public space is extremely near sighted IMO. For those of us who do drive, University is a very important street.
Silence&Motion
Senior Member
I agree with good7879! A panda habitat would do wonders in bringing some excitement to university ave! Especially since we're closing all of the zoos anyway.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I am afraid that particular breeding pair just gone the way of the Dodo.
AoD
AoD
waltthizzney
New Member
this is just an example about what jane jacobs was talking about and the whole failure of the "city beautiful movement" in regards to trying to make these grand, amazing areas, which turn out to be lifeless, due the huge intersection, insane speeds of cars, few blocks, and not giving anyone any reason to walk around. Honestly their is little hope for this street
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
My comment is not so much directed at Bay or University. What I wanted to suggest is that there is no "right" answer. We are making a judgement that street vitality is good and that street vitality means progress. I generally believe that street vitality is good and that vitality means progress. However, in a mature city with uniform levels of high vitality wouldn't a dead street be considered valuable? Would you think it insane for planners in a hyper-active city to encourage the deadening of streets?
In criticizing University Avenue (perhaps rightly) keep in mind we are also criticizing a street with a concentration of health, medical, and medical research that is quite possibly as unique and important globally in those areas of human activity as any of the most lively streets in New York or Shanghai or Barcelona are for shopping or strolling.
If cities are about diversity and cities are places where humans have high standards of living, we must accept that something like buying gas or going to the dump are as legitimate and important as having vibrant commercial streets.
In criticizing University Avenue (perhaps rightly) keep in mind we are also criticizing a street with a concentration of health, medical, and medical research that is quite possibly as unique and important globally in those areas of human activity as any of the most lively streets in New York or Shanghai or Barcelona are for shopping or strolling.
If cities are about diversity and cities are places where humans have high standards of living, we must accept that something like buying gas or going to the dump are as legitimate and important as having vibrant commercial streets.
Tewder
Senior Member
Yes, I suppose some would consider the UofT campus to be lifeless and dead because it isn't lined with retail. Ditto Queen's Park. I'm not sure this is what Jacobs had in mind.
confusion
Active Member
The one thing Bay St does right between Grosvenor and Wellesley is the extra wide sidewalks! It's an expressway for pedestrians!
And I agree with other posters, Bay St is far from dead for foot traffic (esp. compared to American cities) but has a long way to be like Yonge.
And I agree with other posters, Bay St is far from dead for foot traffic (esp. compared to American cities) but has a long way to be like Yonge.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
I believe that the median - planted nicely in the summer, rarely used by pedestrians because it takes the form of disconnected "islands", pretty to look at as you drive past - came about as a result of that very car culture. But by reducing the number of lanes of traffic, killing the median, expanding the sidewalks and encouraging cafes and more pedestrian-friendly uses we can transform University into a more engaging model.