King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[allabootmatt]

This arrangement seems needlessly complicated, and dependent on drivers paying *a lot* of attention to the rules of a novel, one of a kind arrangement. The Queens Quay experience, which involves a much simpler design, does not suggest they will.

Much better to just close the street to cars and be done with it.

 

[adrianaliu]

This arrangement seems needlessly complicated, and dependent on drivers paying *a lot* of attention to the rules of a novel, one of a kind arrangement. The Queens Quay experience, which involves a much simpler design, does not suggest they will.

Much better to just close the street to cars and be done with it.

u still need to allow some traffic for deliveries and driveways along king. I understand that not all sections of the street have these but most of them do. i would be totally happy if they did something like qq on king with wide sidewalks streetcar row and narrow traffic lanes, they could do better though, and im pretty sure kings row is too narrow to allow for a wide sidewalk a bikepath traffic lanes and streetcar row. so i suggest converting the outside lanes to sidewalk, and then the centre lanes for streetcars and local traffic.

 

[georgevicbell]

u still need to allow some traffic for deliveries and driveways along king. I understand that not all sections of the street have these but most of them do. i would be totally happy if they did something like qq on king with wide sidewalks streetcar row and narrow traffic lanes, they could do better though, and im pretty sure kings row is too narrow to allow for a wide sidewalk a bikepath traffic lanes and streetcar row. so i suggest converting the outside lanes to sidewalk, and then the centre lanes for streetcars and local traffic.

There are simple solutions to this, done in many other cities around the world...retractable bollards, or gates...that open with either:
1) A transponder
2) A text from a specific phone number
3) Specific times

This allows for deliveries by trucks at specific times, owners/employees to access their condos/work parking etc, guests to also access parking (pre-setup by the owner).

The city can also shut down any public parking, or redevelop it/sell it.

Private parking lots could be compensated or very limited access to them could be made (i.e. block specific).

 

[ShonTron]

I wondered if there were a few short blocks on King Street where all traffic could be banned: between Victoria and Yonge, between University and York, between Charlotte and Peter/Blue Jays Way, and between Niagara and Walnut (or at Stanley Park itself). Neither section has any private driveways, nor would block drop-offs at any hotels, the Mirvish theatres or TIFF. This could certainly discourage through traffic.

On other sections, implement a few alternating loops and other measures.

 

[amnesiajune]

Maybe. I'm curious what they'll do between York and Simcoe, since you can't turn right from King EB to York, and you can't turn right from King WB to Simcoe. They probably could close off King between York and University, but they'd need to keep it open between University and Simcoe for the laneway.

Charlotte Street is definitely going to be one of the intersections where you aren't forced to turn.

 

[Megaton327]

Maybe. I'm curious what they'll do between York and Simcoe, since you can't turn right from King EB to York, and you can't turn right from King WB to Simcoe. They probably could close off King between York and University, but they'd need to keep it open between University and Simcoe for the laneway.

Charlotte Street is definitely going to be one of the intersections where you aren't forced to turn.

I think closing King from York to University actually makes sense. There are no driveways, and the buildings on either side have access via roads on 3 other sides for deliveries/taxis. Westbound traffic from University probably needs to be allowed to go straight at Simcoe as an exception, and continue to Duncan St.

I was initially inclined to agree about Charlotte, but I don't know. Westbound traffic could certainly be forced to turn. If the point of this is to make cars only be allowed on the street for local access e.g. driveways and deliveries, then a car could enter at Peter and exit at Charlotte...for that matter, I don't see anywhere on that stretch of King, on the north side, requiring access. I don't see anything on the north side from Peter to Spadina, in fact, as those buildings have access from Peter/Charlotte/Spadina/Adelaide.

I would like to see city staff analyze each and every one of these stretches of king, even between minor streets as long as one-ways aren't a problem, because there are definitely some like University-York north side and Peter-Spadina north side that do not require vehicle access.

 

[MetroMan]

I wondered if there were a few short blocks on King Street where all traffic could be banned: between Victoria and Yonge, between University and York, between Charlotte and Peter/Blue Jays Way, and between Niagara and Walnut (or at Stanley Park itself). Neither section has any private driveways, nor would block drop-offs at any hotels, the Mirvish theatres or TIFF. This could certainly discourage through traffic.

On other sections, implement a few alternating loops and other measures.

I like this idea. If drivers knew that they couldn't make it all the way through to their destination on King, they'd take other streets.

Connecting Stanley Park would be fantastic. With the new south Stanley Park extension and the bridge to Fort York, this would form a continuous park to near the lake.

 

[dowlingm]

I like this idea. If drivers knew that they couldn't make it all the way through to their destination on King, they'd take other streets.

Connecting Stanley Park would be fantastic. With the new south Stanley Park extension and the bridge to Fort York, this would form a continuous park to near the lake.

Can't see Transportation being happy about closing King near Niagara given there is a works yard right there and nowhere obvious to move it to.

 

[amnesiajune]

Can't see Transportation being happy about closing King near Niagara given there is a works yard right there and nowhere obvious to move it to.

King isn't closing near Niagara. The city basically said that there won't be any changes west of Bathurst because there's nowhere for traffic to go except Queen Street, where it would mess up the 501 even more than it helps the 504.

 

[ksun]

City Council would never go with that in one drastic move. That's why these options were presented. I think a gradual approach might ease downtown Toronto into a lesser and lesser car centric.

Only in Toronto to have one pedestrian only street is considered "drastic".
"Gradual" sounds nice but in fact is just cowardness.

 

[ksun]

That would open the city up to a huge amount of lawsuits as there are many private driveways opening onto King St., e.g. Condo parking garages. Multiple buildings would permanently lose all access to their large parking garages. This is, in practice, illegal--the city would simply never be allowed to do it. Cars must be allowed on the street; the most we can do is minimize car traffic. Also, unless the TTC plans to start getting into the delivery business, all of the restaurants and businesses on King need to receive deliveries by truck.

Yea yea yea, this is why all the pedestrian only zones of European downtowns never get their stuff delivered by trucks.

Hopefully Tonronto will have its first carfree street in 2050. We just need the cars for 1,000 reasons.

 

[Steve X]

That would open the city up to a huge amount of lawsuits as there are many private driveways opening onto King St., e.g. Condo parking garages. Multiple buildings would permanently lose all access to their large parking garages. This is, in practice, illegal--the city would simply never be allowed to do it. Cars must be allowed on the street; the most we can do is minimize car traffic. Also, unless the TTC plans to start getting into the delivery business, all of the restaurants and businesses on King need to receive deliveries by truck.

Toronto can continue with this counter productiveness while the world has moved on. Deliveries doesn't have to be done in front of the store. They don't do that in Europe. It's just the North American way of doing thing by making it easier and lazier in front of the store. They just need to park their truck on a side street and push a kart for a block.

They are planning to do a block to block analysis to see what needs to be kept opened. The city won't screw people over by closing the entire street. Private access could still be maintained with access lanes on King.

Mix traffic isn't the biggest issue as long as cars don't block streetcars or loading area. Melbourne is years ahead. People can be fined for blocking a streetcar there. If they need to drive around a broken down car on the driving lane, they must wait till all streetcars to clears the lane before driving around it. They should change the HTA to allow a "streetcar lane" law where all drivers must yield to streetcars if they were to drive in the streetcar lane. They also have strict rules like bust be behind the streetcar if doors are open and only proceed at 10km/h beside a stopped streetcar at a stop. The "streetcar lane" doesn't have to be 24/7. It can be 7am to 7pm or rush hour only depending on location. It's not a HOV or special diamond lane because they would allow cars to block streetcars if they meet the requirement. The lane restriction simply don't work on King.

I believe the goal should be slowly remove capacity one street at a time. People would find their travel time increase and eventual be fed up and switch to other modes of transportation. In 2018, restriction on King. In 2023, start with Queen. Eventually every streetcar route would have a "Streetcar lane" designation which people cannot continuously drive on it. Heavy fine should apply for people who disobey it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Yea yea yea, this is why all the pedestrian only zones of European downtowns never get their stuff delivered by trucks.

Hopefully Tonronto will have its first carfree street in 2050. We just need the cars for 1,000 reasons.

We already have a couple. Ryerson's campus is probably the most extensive, Gould and Victoria is a fairly large area. If the universities public realm plan gets implemented as proposed it will be quite nice.

 

[ksun]

We already have a couple. Ryerson's campus is probably the most extensive, Gould and Victoria is a fairly large area. If the universities public realm plan gets implemented as proposed it will be quite nice.

If they count as pedrestrian only streets, I feel very sorry. They are like 100 meters long.
What matters are retail streets with stores on both sides, and hopefully people can walk for more than 5 minutes.

 

[Steve X]

It's just a minute of walking. It doesn't even reach Church St. Just the laneway to Bond St and a bitch south Victoria St to the parking lot. A lot of unfamiliar people end up turning on Victoria St only to find it's a dead end to the Ryerson parking garage. It reduced a lot of outside traffic who uses the area to bypass Yonge/Dundas.

The King pilot should cut down a lot of unnecessary traffic too. Just leaving a few locals who need to access the area along with the taxis.