King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[Megaton327]

The only way to discourage through traffic is to cap the end of each centre lane with material that only streetcars can traverse. Either a grass patch or a raised curb with cutouts for streetcar tracks. At the very least, they can make it rough cobblestone as a sensory notice. Painted lines won't do a thing.

One major problem with that is buses won't be able to operate whenever there's track construction, an accident, broken down streetcar, etc., so all public transit on the city's 3rd busiest line has no fallback option.

Those fancy European auto-raising/lowering bollards would be nice, but they're expensive, and for various other reasons I just don't see them ever happening here.

 

[MetroMan]

One major problem with that is buses won't be able to operate whenever there's track construction, an accident, broken down streetcar, etc., so all public transit on the city's 3rd busiest line has no fallback option.

Those fancy European auto-raising/lowering bollards would be nice, but they're expensive, and for various other reasons I just don't see them ever happening here.

Good points. I don't see how they're going to get drivers to go against their own interests to just continuing straight ahead. This is the city where we have cars driving into subway station tunnels, onto streetcar ROWs and making illegal left turns.

Best option was the Alternating Loops because it was intuitive. It's a single one way lane so cars would have no choice but to turn right. Streetcars had an exclusive ROW for Spadina like rapid transit with signal priority and pedestrians had expanded sidewalks on one side of each block.

The only glimmer of hope with this option is that it presents the best opportunity to eventually close King to cars entirely. It could be a Trojan horse. With expanded sidewalks on both sides and just one lane each way in the middle used by streetcars, once the benefits are clear, it's not too far to take it one step farther and prohibit cars entirely during certain hours or full time.

 

[raptor]

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, this is Option 3: Transit Promenade:



It's the compromise option. Maybe city staff shopped the options around and found that they couldn't get council to agree to such a drastic move, so they chose the one that doesn't really fix the problem.

Streetcars will still be sharing a lane with cars who have to zigzag around sidewalk bumps and parked cars. Not allowing through traffic is going to be confusing as hell since there'll be an open lane straight ahead. If you thought Queens Quay was confusing...

I can see it now. There's going to be a whole lot of streetcars honking at cars waiting in the streetcar lane to go straight ahead or make an illegal left turn and there's going to be cars stuck in the intersection waiting to make a right turn into the single lane that might be occupied by a streetcar at the stop. This has confusion spelled all over it.

Did you even read the article in the Globe? There would be NO left turns, and NO parking allowed. Essentially the left (streetcar) lane is free of cars. There is no reason for an automobile driver to merge into a streetcar lane.

 

[MetroMan]

Did you even read the article in the Globe? There would be NO left turns, and NO parking allowed. Essentially the left (streetcar) lane is free of cars. There is no reason for an automobile driver to merge into a streetcar lane.

Can you even read a diagram? Cars *must* merge with the streetcar lane because that is the only lane available. The other lanes will be closed to cars with planters or bike racks except at the very end where they are supposed to pull to the side to make a right.

The fact that there will be signs for no left turns isn't something that has prevented Toronto drivers from holding up traffic to make those turns anyway.

 

[raptor]

Can you even read a diagram? Cars *must* merge with the streetcar lane because that is the only lane available. The other lanes will be closed to cars with planters or bike racks except at the very end where they are supposed to pull to the side to make a right.

The fact that there will be signs for no left turns isn't something that has prevented Toronto drivers from holding up traffic to make those turns anyway.

You're right, I'm sorry. Don't get why they can't open up the right lane to cars if they expect minimal car traffic anyway.

 

[Megaton327]

You're right, I'm sorry. Don't get why they can't open up the right lane to cars if they expect minimal car traffic anyway.

You can't have pedestrians and patio tables in a live traffic lane.

 

[Forgotten]

SMH

 

[MetroMan]

You're right, I'm sorry. Don't get why they can't open up the right lane to cars if they expect minimal car traffic anyway.

Because streetcar priority is only one of the problems that must be resolved. The other is sidewalk space for the surging number of pedestrians who outnumber drivers AND transit riders combined. Sidewalks must be widened to account for hundreds of thousands of new residents along this corridor.

 

[syn]

Good points. I don't see how they're going to get drivers to go against their own interests to just continuing straight ahead. This is the city where we have cars driving into subway station tunnels, onto streetcar ROWs and making illegal left turns.

Best option was the Alternating Loops because it was intuitive. It's a single one way lane so cars would have no choice but to turn right. Streetcars had an exclusive ROW for Spadina like rapid transit with signal priority and pedestrians had expanded sidewalks on one side of each block.

The only glimmer of hope with this option is that it presents the best opportunity to eventually close King to cars entirely. It could be a Trojan horse. With expanded sidewalks on both sides and just one lane each way in the middle used by streetcars, once the benefits are clear, it's not too far to take it one step farther and prohibit cars entirely during certain hours or full time.

I wonder - why not just do that now? Basically turn King into a pedestrian/rapid transit line.

We could definitely use it somewhere south of Bloor.

 

[Voltz]

I wonder - why not just do that now? Basically turn King into a pedestrian/rapid transit line.

We could definitely use it somewhere south of Bloor.

I'm sure there would be cries of "War on the car!"

 

[MetroMan]

I wonder - why not just do that now? Basically turn King into a pedestrian/rapid transit line.

We could definitely use it somewhere south of Bloor.

City Council would never go with that in one drastic move. That's why these options were presented. I think a gradual approach might ease downtown Toronto into a lesser and lesser car centric.

 

[ADRM]

I think the planners might be underestimating the degree to which right-turning cars are still going to hold up streetcars in the stretches with the highest pedestrian traffic.

You're still going to wind up almost every block with that dumb-ass, very Toronto situation where a single-occupancy vehicle is holding up tens of thousands of people on streetcars because the stream of crossing pedestrians is going to hold up right turners.

Oh, and the Mirvish folks can get bent with their misplaced auto centrism, thankyouverymuch.

 

[Megaton327]

I wonder - why not just do that now? Basically turn King into a pedestrian/rapid transit line.

We could definitely use it somewhere south of Bloor.

That would open the city up to a huge amount of lawsuits as there are many private driveways opening onto King St., e.g. Condo parking garages. Multiple buildings would permanently lose all access to their large parking garages. This is, in practice, illegal--the city would simply never be allowed to do it. Cars must be allowed on the street; the most we can do is minimize car traffic. Also, unless the TTC plans to start getting into the delivery business, all of the restaurants and businesses on King need to receive deliveries by truck.

 

[MisterF]

That would open the city up to a huge amount of lawsuits as there are many private driveways opening onto King St., e.g. Condo parking garages. Multiple buildings would permanently lose all access to their large parking garages. This is, in practice, illegal--the city would simply never be allowed to do it. Cars must be allowed on the street; the most we can do is minimize car traffic. Also, unless the TTC plans to start getting into the delivery business, all of the restaurants and businesses on King need to receive deliveries by truck.

Truck deliveries are still allowed on pedestrian streets and transit malls around the world. That's not a major stumbling block to closing off a street to vehicle traffic. Private driveways are a bigger limiting factor.

 

[MetroMan]

Some blocks don't have deliveries on King nor parking entrances. Restaurant Row is serviced by a back alley, streets east of Peter are serviced via Pearl St. There's no reason to keep these streets open to car traffic. Still, I would be ok with a single lane of alternating one ways at each block to allow for low volume traffic for taxis and other pickups/drop offs. Inevitably, the 504/514 streetcar will need to become a ROW if we're going to solve the problem of cross-downtown transit.