Is LRT's repuation damaged permanently?

[W. K. Lis]

LRT would be great for Toronto's lower density areas right now, however I'm of the opinion that most of the lines would become overcrowded in a relatively short period as density increases. Subway is more expensive to build, and most areas that aren't currently served by subways don't have the density to justify it yet, but as we've seen by the "T" formation around Yonge-Bloor, subway lines attract high density development and economic growth more than any other system, and it's much easier to increase frequency on subway lines than LRT.

If the capacity on one Light Rail Line is too much, they build another line following another arterial road. For example, If Eglington gets too crowded, the Light Rail Lines on Finch/Sheppard could get the initial overflow. In the future, other lines could be built as needed, maybe along Lawrence or even Steeles.

That way the light rail lines could be expanded at a lower cost, in comparison with heavy rail lines. Reaching more people, providing rapid transit across more of Toronto.

 

[sixrings]

If the capacity on one Light Rail Line is too much, they build another line following another arterial road. For example, If Eglington gets too crowded, the Light Rail Lines on Finch/Sheppard could get the initial overflow. In the future, other lines could be built as needed, maybe along Lawrence or even Steeles.

That way the light rail lines could be expanded at a lower cost, in comparison with heavy rail lines. Reaching more people, providing rapid transit across more of Toronto.

agreed. After Eglinton comes Lawrence. Its almost as if people just want to build one line and one line only to last forever.

 

[andrewpmk]

agreed. After Eglinton comes Lawrence. Its almost as if people just want to build one line and one line only to last forever.

You wouldn't need a line on Lawrence if you built a high capacity subway like you should build.

Building anything on the central part of Lawrence would require expensive tunneling anyway.

 

[44 North]

I somewhat disagree with other people's claims that Sheppard and Finch will not become quaint, medium density "avenues" with the SELRT and FWLRT. It may take time, but I believe it will spur a significant amount of development and private investment. The line will be a draw for townhomes, lowrise, medium rise, storefronts. Even simple things like trees lining these arterial roads will help this along. Railed transit improves property values and draws investment. And frankly, I would much rather see lower or medium density development than the out of place 40-storey buildings alongside bungalows like around Sheppard or Yonge.

As for claims that in-median LRT isn't enough to draw new transit riders...I don't believe that for a second. First of all, the ridership on these bus routes is already significant enough to warrant the investment. Second, any railed transit is attractive enough to attract more riders than a bus. Simple as that. This is proven. Whether it's fully grade-separated, or slower Transit City style; railed transit is a catalyst for new riders that you simply cannot achieve with buses.

 

[44 North]

And it occurred to me that LRT may draw more development track-for-track than a suburban commuter style subway, with stops of 2km or more. The higher the number of stops, the more nodes for development...even if this development is zoned as lower density than the skyscrapers people envision around subway stations.

 

[sixrings]

You wouldn't need a line on Lawrence if you built a high capacity subway like you should build.

Building anything on the central part of Lawrence would require expensive tunneling anyway.

Lawrence is wide enough for a ROW from Dixon to Dufferin. The tunnelled portion would be from Dufferin to Yonge. About half of Eglintons tunnel size.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not at all convinced that the LRT will become overcrowded anytime in the coming decades

1. There's absolutely no data that would cause us to expect that
2. The trains that will be used on our LRT lines are closer to that of a subway than streetcar

Streetcar: 132 passengers
Light Rail Transit: 840 passengers.
Subway: 1,100 passengers.

 

[salsa]

LRT would be great for Toronto's lower density areas right now, however I'm of the opinion that most of the lines would become overcrowded in a relatively short period as density increases. Subway is more expensive to build, and most areas that aren't currently served by subways don't have the density to justify it yet, but as we've seen by the "T" formation around Yonge-Bloor, subway lines attract high density development and economic growth more than any other system, and it's much easier to increase frequency on subway lines than LRT.

The projected ridership for the Finch and Sheppard LRTs are small enough that even a BRT would be appropriate. It will take a long time to fill up the excess capacity, and by the time that happens these LRTs will be at the end of their life anyway. The Sheppard line is a great example of overbuilding prematurely. It's been over 10 years since it was built and you still see empty trains, and that will not change anytime soon. I also don't see any Yonge-Bloor density happening on Sheppard, or along the rest of the BD line.

 

[andrewpmk]

Lawrence is wide enough for a ROW from Dixon to Dufferin. The tunnelled portion would be from Dufferin to Yonge. About half of Eglintons tunnel size.

You'd still have to tunnel under the Bridle Path though.

Building a partially underground Lawrence LRT to deal with Eglinton's inevitable overcrowding problems is much more expensive than simply making Eglinton a subway with elevated sections the way it should have been in the first place, if it was not for David Miller's insistence on using LRT in places where it is clearly inappropriate.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You'd still have to tunnel under the Bridle Path though.

Building a partially underground Lawrence LRT to deal with Eglinton's inevitable overcrowding problems

Kind of a misleading thing to say. Overcrowding is inevitable on any line, including subways


i

is much more expensive than simply making Eglinton a subway with elevated sections the way it should have been in the first place,

Are you factoring in extra maintenance and operational costs? The 14 km Sheppard Subway costs $1 Billion every 5 years to maintain. Even if we assume that the LRT line will cost 60% as much as the subway to maintain over 60 years we still wouldn't be saving a dime. We'd just be wasting money that could have been used to improve other services.

 

[44 North]

Building a partially underground Lawrence LRT to deal with Eglinton's inevitable overcrowding problems is much more expensive than simply making Eglinton a subway with elevated sections the way it should have been in the first place, if it was not for David Miller's insistence on using LRT in places where it is clearly inappropriate.

Agreed. Eglinton should've always been a grade-separated line...just not as subway for its outer stretches. Elevated or trenched is the most optimal. One continuous grade-separated route from Malvern to Weston...and potentially Pearson. I don't agree with grade separation and fewer stops on Sheppard or Finch, but Eglinton is a logical choice that Miller/Giambrone chintzed out on.

I think another idea for a thread is: Why hasn't Toronto embraced elevated 'light' metros?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Agreed. Eglinton should've always been a grade-separated line...just not as subway for its outer stretches. Elevated or trenched is the most optimal. One continuous grade-separated route from Malvern to Weston...and potentially Pearson. I don't agree with grade separation and fewer stops on Sheppard or Finch, but Eglinton is a logical choice that Miller/Giambrone chintzed out on.

I think another idea for a thread is: Why hasn't Toronto embraced elevated 'light' metros?

ML was to study it two years ago, but that never materialized.

 

[middeljohn]

The Sheppard line is a great example of overbuilding prematurely. It's been over 10 years since it was built and you still see empty trains, and that will not change anytime soon. I also don't see any Yonge-Bloor density happening on Sheppard, or along the rest of the BD line.

From wikipedia:

The Sheppard line has spurred over $1 billion of construction of new housing, including several high-rise condominium towers, along its route as transit-oriented developments. Particularly noteworthy are the condominiums around Bayview Station, where none had previously existed prior to the 2000s. In addition, between Leslie and Bessarion stations, a former Canadian Tire warehouse/distribution centre next to Highway 401 (the chain retains a store nearby, along with Mark's Work Wearhouse, also owned by Canadian Tire) was demolished and the land was being sold to Concord Adex Investments Limited of Vancouver. Construction on the first phase is well underway to develop the area into a large multi-condo complex, Concord Park Place, which includes a community park.[6] There is also development around Swedish furniture chain IKEA in the immediate area; IKEA also runs a complimentary shuttle bus between the store and Leslie station.

The Daniels Building Company has built a six-tower development, called NY Towers, north of the 401 between Bayview and Bessarion; Arc Condominiums on the northeast corner of Bayview/Sheppard; and terraced condos just east of their NY Towers. Shane Baghai has also built a multi-tower development in the area.

 

[Johnny Au]

From wikipedia:

The Sheppard line has spurred over $1 billion of construction of new housing, including several high-rise condominium towers, along its route as transit-oriented developments. Particularly noteworthy are the condominiums around Bayview Station, where none had previously existed prior to the 2000s. In addition, between Leslie and Bessarion stations, a former Canadian Tire warehouse/distribution centre next to Highway 401 (the chain retains a store nearby, along with Mark's Work Wearhouse, also owned by Canadian Tire) was demolished and the land was being sold to Concord Adex Investments Limited of Vancouver. Construction on the first phase is well underway to develop the area into a large multi-condo complex, Concord Park Place, which includes a community park.[6] There is also development around Swedish furniture chain IKEA in the immediate area; IKEA also runs a complimentary shuttle bus between the store and Leslie station.

The Daniels Building Company has built a six-tower development, called NY Towers, north of the 401 between Bayview and Bessarion; Arc Condominiums on the northeast corner of Bayview/Sheppard; and terraced condos just east of their NY Towers. Shane Baghai has also built a multi-tower development in the area.

I wrote some of that in the Sheppard line article.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

From wikipedia:

The Sheppard line has spurred over $1 billion of construction of new housing, including several high-rise condominium towers, along its route as transit-oriented developments. Particularly noteworthy are the condominiums around Bayview Station, where none had previously existed prior to the 2000s. In addition, between Leslie and Bessarion stations, a former Canadian Tire warehouse/distribution centre next to Highway 401 (the chain retains a store nearby, along with Mark's Work Wearhouse, also owned by Canadian Tire) was demolished and the land was being sold to Concord Adex Investments Limited of Vancouver. Construction on the first phase is well underway to develop the area into a large multi-condo complex, Concord Park Place, which includes a community park.[6] There is also development around Swedish furniture chain IKEA in the immediate area; IKEA also runs a complimentary shuttle bus between the store and Leslie station.

The Daniels Building Company has built a six-tower development, called NY Towers, north of the 401 between Bayview and Bessarion; Arc Condominiums on the northeast corner of Bayview/Sheppard; and terraced condos just east of their NY Towers. Shane Baghai has also built a multi-tower development in the area.

Be honest, do you think if the sheppard subway was completed, these towers would continue to be built?