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Is LRT's repuation damaged permanently?

denfromoakvillemilton said:
I say this because almost everyone off the internet is a lukewarm supporter of LRT at best in Toronto. Will opinions change when Eglinton comes on line?
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I haven't bumped into anyone yet who isn't keen for the Eglinton line to open as soon as possible. And I've bumped into a lot of people who think St. Clair is working much better with the dedicated right of way (though I agree that one underpass needs fixing). And I bump into a lot of people who are as frustrated as heck at the gridlock on King Street downtown, and they aren't driving cars on King.

So I'm wondering if your your sample is missing something. Mr. T perhaps?
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Because we really don't have any true LRT in Toronto.
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There is 2.5 km of proper light rail on Queensway, that doesn't ever cause any trouble or complaint from drivers. Yes, pretty short ... but longer than Seattle's much vaunted South Lake Union Streetcar (their only streetcar line).
 
nfitz said:
There is 2.5 km of proper light rail on Queensway, that doesn't ever cause any trouble or complaint from drivers. Yes, pretty short ... but longer than Seattle's much vaunted South Lake Union Streetcar (their only streetcar line).
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Yeah, except what before and after that stretch basically reduced the benefits to nothing. Any serious uptake of LRTs will have to be much more convincing than that.

AoD
 
Because morons who don't understand what transit is (our mayor and his brother) tell everyone that LRT is the same as streetcars, and people fall for it.
 
I think Eglinton will get positive reviews. LRT is a great alternative to heavy rail as I keep mentioning how brilliant the London DLR is and how I personally enjoy using it just as much as the Tube, hence that's why I usually stay at Canary Wharf when I go there. The problem in Toronto is that Transit City damaged the LRT image even Christopher Hume painfully agrees with Nepsis analysis of Sheppard and Finch as slow, inappropriate design and might not attract that many people to those systems.

Eglinton East might be the source of future criticism when we'll get cold temperature like today and the trains will be delayed. I trust Metrolinx who did a better job at designing the line than the TTC initially did will find way to avoid that as much as possible with the hope of having the line grade separated in the future which would guarantee it's success.

Now that I think about it, is it really necessary to spend 800M$ to elevate the line when flawless transit signal and barriers at the intersection could be installed for a fraction of the price? Adding heaters at outside crosstown stations?

Ultimately, the future of LRT in this city rests with how well Eglinton will be built and operated. An overwhelming success will most likely guarantee the return of LRT on avenues like Jane, Lawrence Wilson and more.
 
Now that I think about it, is it really necessary to spend 800M$ to elevate the line when flawless transit signal and barriers at the intersection could be installed for a fraction of the price? Adding heaters at outside crosstown stations?
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The problem is that there aren't any, as far as we know, flawless transit signals system in a mixed traffic scenario. If the line is successful at some point it will have to be upgraded to increase capacity and reliability. We should plan for that eventuality - but not spend the money for it right now.

AoD
 
You cant damage something that doesn't really exist in Toronto. If Metrolinx holds true to it's word and pushes up the Sheppard East and Finch West LRT, people will see the improved quality over the current crowded, slow buses, and will love LRT.
 
JayBeeGooner said:
You cant damage something that doesn't really exist in Toronto. If Metrolinx holds true to it's word and pushes up the Sheppard East and Finch West LRT, people will see the improved quality over the current crowded, slow buses, and will love LRT.
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Id rephrase it to "they will like LRT" which is a significant improvement over their current hate for busses. "Love" Will still be reserved for Subways.
 
Solid Snake said:
LRT is a great alternative to heavy rail as I keep mentioning how brilliant the London DLR is and how I personally enjoy using it just as much as the Tube,....
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DLR is not LRT. It is much closer to a subway (as is our current SRT) than virtually any LRT system on the planet.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
As a lifelong Torontonian currently living in Calgary (Just over a year now), I can say...

LRT is AMAZING - honestly I think i prefer it to Subways because you don't have to contend with the screeching sounds of the 3rd rail :)

But It is amazing here because it is built properly. The stations are built like real metro (subway) designs instead of being upgraded streetcar stops. Downtown Calgary (7th Avenue) is the exception but that's only because of the environment of what its running through, therefore it is appropriate.

LRT in Toronto will be a fail, especially on Finch and Sheppard, because the designers have their heads on unrealistic european avenues in their heads. They think that Finch Avenue is going to become St. Clair one day.
Calgary has a pretty utilitarian approach. Sometimes it makes things worse (like the ugly 70s downtown buildings, luckily rectified in the current boom) but in the case of rapid transit design, it is their strongest asset.
A system that works. The city finds the best ROW and runs the train right through. If the intersection is busy (Like Vic Park/O'Conner/Pharmacy Mess) then they grade separate. Otherwise, the line is kept on the surface.
There are no hard firm rules of ALL Separate or ALL at grade. Simply, the system is built the best way possible for the lowest cost. It is no wonder Calgary already has more rapid transit KM than the Toronto Subway.

In Toronto, Eglinton I have some hope for...but really it still needs lots of work. This avenues mindset of fancy streetcars has to end. I love LRT but i *HATE* the way Toronto plans to use them.
There shouldn't be a stop at Ferrand, Lebovic, or Pharmacy. And there should be a major station in the empty land triangle between Vic Park, Eglinton, and O'Conner (LRT enters a portal west of Vic Park, deviates south into station, then re-emerges back into the median in a portal east of Pharmacy). These kind of pragmatic simple changes can make a huge difference to this line. I have hope for Metrolinx because they are the ones that used this thinking process to fix the western terminus into Mt. Dennis through a unique Elevated alignment... I have 0% hope in TTC however.

Unfortunately, most people in the GTA don't have the opportunity to live in another city with LRT and see how awesome it is, therefore, i 100% understand why people hate them and are frustrated with the idea of them.
 
Solid Snake said:
I think Eglinton will get positive reviews. LRT is a great alternative to heavy rail as I keep mentioning how brilliant the London DLR is and how I personally enjoy using it just as much as the Tube, hence that's why I usually stay at Canary Wharf when I go there. The problem in Toronto is that Transit City damaged the LRT image even Christopher Hume painfully agrees with Nepsis analysis of Sheppard and Finch as slow, inappropriate design and might not attract that many people to those systems.

Eglinton East might be the source of future criticism when we'll get cold temperature like today and the trains will be delayed. I trust Metrolinx who did a better job at designing the line than the TTC initially did will find way to avoid that as much as possible with the hope of having the line grade separated in the future which would guarantee it's success.

Now that I think about it, is it really necessary to spend 800M$ to elevate the line when flawless transit signal and barriers at the intersection could be installed for a fraction of the price? Adding heaters at outside crosstown stations?

Ultimately, the future of LRT in this city rests with how well Eglinton will be built and operated. An overwhelming success will most likely guarantee the return of LRT on avenues like Jane, Lawrence Wilson and more.
Click to expand...

I think when Eglinton opens then LRT will get an even worse name. People waiting in the cold, the line being delayed by emergency vehicles or errant vehicles and no provision to eliminate transfers (either at SRT, or if ECLRT is extended east) will all lead people to question why we spent $5B and allowed a small portion of the line to restrict its effectiveness. I think it will be the last LRT in Toronto for some time, although if Sheppard or Finch is started before Eglinton opens, then they will be completed as well.
 
I think that raising taxes but not changing Eglinton and Sheppard to subways will end up being unpopular. Wynne is putting so much political capital into this tax increase that is bound to happen, but it does not make sense to simply tack more lines onto Miller's "Transit City" proposal when you raise taxes and have 5x the amount of money. I am willing to bet that these taxes are going to be really unpopular among people living on Sheppard between Don Mills and Kennedy when they find that they are going to pay 10 cents a litre more for gas and still get the same old transfer at Don Mills proposal as before. This will raise gas prices to the high levels found in Montreal and Vancouver, both of which have gas taxes for transit funding and both of which are planning on building real subways. The whole "Transit City" proposal comes from a time when the funding was a lot more limited than it would be with this tax, and in any case with the amount of money allocated for Transit City the Miller administration should have built one of the downtown relief line or electrified GO service, which would have sucked up all the money available at the time and would have been far less controversial. It is rather astonishing to see this Neptis report calling for a transit plan very similar to Rob Ford's with the addition of improved GO service but coming from someone with far more credibility than Rob Ford, as usual this report is ignored despite being on the front page of the Toronto Star.
 
The local politicians did a great job at damaging LRT's reputation. When getting Sheppard, Finch and Eglinton approved, the debate was framed as "the appropriate transit option in the appropriate situation". That is, subway is not better or worse than LRT, you build what makes the most sense. So LRT could actually be better/more beneficial in the right circumstances.

Then with the whole Scarborough Subway debate, the language shifted to "Scarborough deserves subways". Implying LRT is inferior to subway, and I'm sure many politicians said exactly that. Once you've crossed that line, I think its hard to go back.

One thing to keep in mind is Eglinton won't be complete for another 8 or so years! So its pointless to say that once everyone sees how incredible (or crappy) Eglinton is, people can make up their minds about LRT. Toronto doesn't have that luxury of time. Longer-term I think the city/province will come to regret building this as LRT and not as subway, considering the amount of tunnel being dug. Either way it is sure to transform the city for the better.
 
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