Is CityPlace Toronto’s next ghetto?

[junctionist]

Ghetto? Well, every great city always needs a place where one can litter freely, abandon a car easily on the streets, and participate in underground economies. Of course, only New York and Chicago matter as great cities, and I only look to their history and built form as legit. Bootleg Blu-rays will have to be made somewhere, and it won't be Governor's Bridge. Soon enough, Toronto Hydro will give it some overhead wires in spite of the investment made to bury them originally. Thus, it will be easy to throw up some shoes. The park may become a place only to venture in with aggressive dogs, but also a place for cultural events such as rap battles.

The rail corridor will have mattresses strewn around with wild graffiti but also all sorts of vulgar remarks, possibly distinctly English phrases and cockney slang for postcolonial irony. All in good time, it will evolve and feature a vibrant corridor of retail such as cash advance stores and an excellent variety of nail salons. Sheltered suburbanites will praise it for its authenticity. I look forward to a lot of graffiti on the glass retail spaces, possibly of the etch-a-sketch variety. Vancouver will become hardcore legit, with like 7 CityPlaces! Get some spray paint and choose a colour.

[*Satirical post]​

 

[Jonny5]

Ghetto? Well, every great city always needs a place where one can litter freely, abandon a car easily on the streets, and participate in underground economies. Of course, only New York and Chicago matter as great cities, and I only look to their history and built form as legit. Bootleg Blu-rays will have to be made somewhere, and it won't be Governor's Bridge. Soon enough, Toronto Hydro will give it some overhead wires in spite of the investment made to bury them originally. Thus, it will be easy to throw up some shoes. The park may become a place only to venture in with aggressive dogs, but also a place for cultural events such as rap battles.

The rail corridor will have mattresses strewn around with wild graffiti but also all sorts of vulgar remarks, possibly distinctly English phrases and cockney slang for postcolonial irony. All in good time, it will evolve and feature a vibrant corridor of retail such as cash advance stores and an excellent variety of nail salons. Sheltered suburbanites will praise it for its authenticity. I look forward to a lot of graffiti on the glass retail spaces, possibly of the etch-a-sketch variety. Vancouver will become hardcore legit, with like 7 CityPlaces! Get some spray paint and choose a colour.

[*Satirical post]​

And a few decades after that, it will attract poor artists and the "creative class" who will open little boutiques and galleries that will be written about on hip urban blogs. And then rich people come to buy the coolness and convert the abandoned towers into co-ops for millionaires and then the neighbourhood just won't be as cool as it used to be and I'll tell my great grandchildrent that when I was growing up Cityplace was a driving range and before that it was the site of Canada's First Parliament, as by then no will really remember where that actually was and they'll be much more concerned with Space Parliament.

So the question we should be asking is really "Is Cityplace Toronto's next Rosedale?"

 

[hawc]

Ghetto? Well, every great city always needs a place where one can litter freely, abandon a car easily on the streets, and participate in underground economies.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Much better film:

 

[ShonTron]

I've been watching a lot of late 1960s/early 1970s films lately. I'm just waiting for the time when the glass curtainwalls will be all marked with X's, the front entrances boarded up, and the units inhabited by a handful of sympathetic third-rate con men.

 

[Dan416]

I and most people in this city wouldn't want to visit Church/Wellesley any more often than Finch/Birchmount.

Luckily you don't speak for everyone on this board because there happen to be many gays on UT.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Time will tell, but I'd be more willing to bet that Waterpark City will be the next St. Jamestown. It suffers from an isolated location, a less than spectacular urban layout (mostly oriented around a congested cul de sac) and its interior fits and finishes already show some wear.

 

[hawc]

Much better film:

Just watched it last night.

 

[UNO3003]

I gotta say the GridTO's article is one of the worst peices of journalism I have ever read. Its just completely irresponsible to print something so off the mark. Cityplace is too visible to become a ghetto. It might be somewhat isolated from pedestrians but too many people "see" Cityplace. Ghettos develop in pockets where there are not visible to the general public, not beside all of the city's major attractions. Not on the waterfronts of cities and the skyline. The walk from CityPlace to Ritz Carlton or King West is less than 10 minutes for the buildings on Front St.

The CityPlace hate stems alot from jealousy. Its just the truth. All the arguements I hear from people who spout off there anti-CityPlace tirades are all living in areas like the Junction, CabbageTown etc. which are nice neighborhoods but just looking at them, superficially actually more closely resemble ghettos with tons of homeless people everywhere and older shabby buildings. The hate for CityPlace stems from the feeling that the area is filled suburbanite ex-905ers who lack "city" experience. Its the classic "geek-hates-the-cheerleader" mentality. Its not a coincedence that the same publication will write winning reviews for little "underdog" boutique places like Queen Video in rough looking areas, restaurants in rough-around-the-edges Littly Italy, or the scene along Ossington/Queen - all much poorer and less wealthy areas. I love those areas but all of those areas could even more easily be deemed as way more ghetto-ized, so why all of this great concern for CityPlace? This is jealousy masked as denigration.

 

[agoraflaneur]

I and most people in this city wouldn't want to visit Church/Wellesley any more often than Finch/Birchmount.

Seriously, what is your point? You obviously have no idea who the people of Toronto are. One million go here for Pride, and outside of that the area is a major destination for night life and restaurants.

I don't go there very often, but you might want to be more intelligent when making such absurd comparisons. The village is a Toronto staple, even without the gays (of whom there are fewer and fewer in the area, it seems).

 

[44 North]

Cityplace is too visible to become a ghetto.

St Jamestown is very visible. Especially two decades ago when there were no condos around it. 35-storey buildings adjacent to Victorian/Edwardian homes makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

Not on the waterfronts of cities and the skyline.

There's no evidence to base that on. And Cityplace isn't really "on" the waterfront.

The walk from CityPlace to Ritz Carlton or King West is less than 10 minutes for the buildings on Front St.

So. Cabbagetown is across Gerrard from Regent Park. That's a 10 second walk. Vancouver's downtown eastside has even greater same-block disparities.

All the arguements I hear from people who spout off there anti-CityPlace tirades are all living in areas like the Junction, CabbageTown etc. which are nice neighborhoods but just looking at them, superficially actually more closely resemble ghettos with tons of homeless people everywhere and older shabby buildings.

Yes, "tons" of homeless. Measuring their numbers in units of weight seems apt. Give it a decade or two, and Cityplace may have its own shelter or methadone clinic. Them's the breaks of city living.

And heaven forbid a neighbourhood has a shabby building. Everything must be new in order for it to be acceptable, right? I reckon you're from the 905.

I love those areas but all of those areas could even more easily be deemed as way more ghetto-ized

Those neighbourhoods are not "ghettoized" simply for the reasons you're describing. That is, they have a variety of demographics with a mixture of high, medium, and low-income residents. Regardless, the article is suggesting CityPlace may become a ghetto simply for the reason of its connectivity, uniform buildings, uniform age, and targeted demographic. Just like many of the current "ghettos".

 

[RC8]

Seriously, what is your point? You obviously have no idea who the people of Toronto are. One million go here for Pride, and outside of that the area is a major destination for night life and restaurants.

I don't go there very often, but you might want to be more intelligent when making such absurd comparisons. The village is a Toronto staple, even without the gays (of whom there are fewer and fewer in the area, it seems).

What do you have against Finch/Birchmount?

One of the places I frequent the most in Toronto is Yonge/Wellesley, but it would be silly for me to argue that a drawback of cityplace is that it's far away from that intersection other than on a neatly personal level considering it's 20min away on TTC, and it's not as big a destination as most. Same goes for Church/Wellesley, which sees considerably less traffic.

 

[AKS]

There's no evidence to base that on. And Cityplace isn't really "on" the waterfront.

It's close to it. Under 5 minutes walk.

Yes, "tons" of homeless. Measuring their numbers in units of weight seems apt. Give it a decade or two, and Cityplace may have its own shelter or methadone clinic. Them's the breaks of city living.

That's unlikely. There's no more empty plots of land left unless you mean for the govt to convert TCHC building to a homeless shelter. Block 31 is suppose to have 2 schools and govt wants to sell off part of the land to builder. So unless they retract the sale idea and build a homeless shelter or methadone clinic right beside a public school, it seems unlikely. The two blocks west of the park is already owned by Concord. Past Bathurst is all owned by other builders. Only place left to build on is Fort York Historical site. I think that's unlikely to have a homeless shelter or drug clinic there.

Those neighbourhoods are not "ghettoized" simply for the reasons you're describing. That is, they have a variety of demographics with a mixture of high, medium, and low-income residents. Regardless, the article is suggesting CityPlace may become a ghetto simply for the reason of its connectivity, uniform buildings, uniform age, and targeted demographic. Just like many of the current "ghettos".

There's a variety of demographics mixture at cityplace. There's people of all ages and races here. Sorry to burst your bubble. Although predominately, the age group is probably mid 20-40's. Cityplace will be better connected once it's all build. Fort York to bathurst road needs to open up. The bridge to connect to Portland will probably open next year. Uniform building wise, all downtown is pretty much uniform IMO. They're all boxy glass towers. I think once more retail develops, the area will become better. It will just take time. There's an art gallery, print shop, nail salon and investment company open currently along with almost every major bank in Canada opening up shop.

 

[taal]

Theirs a rumor that the signature site will include 10 stories of commercial space; Hopefully retail.

I guess the only problem to me is this area is already better served by retail (i.e. east of Spadina) as all the condos here were built with retail. I think the big empty plot of land just east of the park (that's owned by the city right ?) needs to be heavily retail!

 

[UNO3003]

St Jamestown is very visible. Especially two decades ago when there were no condos around it. 35-storey buildings adjacent to Victorian/Edwardian homes makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

Comparing the visibility of Jamestown vs. Cityplace is a stretch. Let me explain, the difference in visibility between the two places, just so you can understand what Im talking about. I was visiting Atlanta for business and a sales associate asked where I live. I told them Toronto. They said "I love Toronto. Where?" I said, "You know where Rogers Centre is?" They said "Yes, OF COURSE". YOu know the condos there, "YES, OF COURSE". Then, I responded "I live there". Everyone I say this to, immediately, say "AHH, yeah". You see? Even people that arent familiar with Toronto, know Cityplace. They see Cityplace everytime a Jay's Game is broadcast on television. Almost, everytime there is an international publication with a picture of Toronto - I see the building that I live in. Every commuter who rides down the Gardiner and takes Spadina, north into the city (thousands upon thousands everyday), see Cityplace. Hence, the lanes on Spadina are 6-7 lanes wide and there is no parking aloud. Is Jamestown witness to this much Traffic? I doubt it. Most people, even lots of Toronto folks, do not know where Jamestown is. Get it?



There's no evidence to base that on. And Cityplace isn't really "on" the waterfront.

Plenty of south-facing units have great waterfront views. I challenge you to describe to me a respected-international city where ghetto residents can boast about great waterfront views on the skyline. and being in 5 minutes walking distance from all its primary tourist destinations - CN Tower, Rogers Centre. Can you think of one? Its okay, I figure you will claim Toronto will be the first. You see people say CP has low visitation rates but the units east of Spadina have tons of tourist walking around due to the CN Tower and Rogers Center. My opinion is the low visitation problem will be more of an issue for the units, west of Spadina.



So. Cabbagetown is across Gerrard from Regent Park. That's a 10 second walk. Vancouver's downtown eastside has even greater same-block disparities.

Hmm..Im a little confused. Cabbagetown has some nice Victorian houses but it still not considered a prime real estate location in Toronto. In fact, condos are notably cheap. For the same sqaure footage as CP, you can get a much much bigger unit. I have friends who recently moved there because the area was notable cheaper than areas west of the Yonge st. for a condo (even Cityplace) They love the area but they do not consider it upscale by any means at all. I am very familiar with "Cabbagetown". There are plenty of homeless ghetto-types all over the neighborhood. (Im not trying to disrespect the place becuase I actually like it alot). But lets be honest, a Sobeys (replacing the No Frills ) like the one at CityPlace would be considered an upscale development there

Vancouver is a city that I am quite familiar with also. If your suggesting that Cityplace will become East Hastings - boy, oh boy, do we have some problems here.


Yes, "tons" of homeless. Measuring their numbers in units of weight seems apt. Give it a decade or two, and Cityplace may have its own shelter or methadone clinic. Them's the breaks of city living.

And heaven forbid a neighbourhood has a shabby building. Everything must be new in order for it to be acceptable, right? I reckon you're from the 905.

I was born in Toronto (20+ years) and have spent 10 years in New York City. I have spent a few years living in Atlanta and Minneapolis. and recently moved back to Toronto. So part of the reason, I find the comments hilarious is becuase from an international standpoint, I know the article is bunk. But you have validated one thing, the "905er" hate is what is driving the anti-CityPlace momentum. The article exemplifies the same attitude that certain "hipster" New Yorkers had towards Battery Park City which probably comes closest to CityPlace as a planned resedential community filled with "bridge and tunnel" types . It is also a planned community which is hated by a segment of New Yorkers because of the "lack of community" but guess what? It still boasts wealthy profressional residents becuase if its a close distance to Wall St.

Those neighbourhoods are not "ghettoized" simply for the reasons you're describing. That is, they have a variety of demographics with a mixture of high, medium, and low-income residents. Regardless, the article is suggesting CityPlace may become a ghetto simply for the reason of its connectivity, uniform buildings, uniform age, and targeted demographic. Just like many of the current "ghettos".

The article is sensationalizing the vapid hatred for CityPlace because it is so visible and people are irritated that units in CP are still not really affordable for the average Torontonian. I think the whole arguement is being confused A development in any other part of the city would probably not recieve so much attention. In fact, I love Liberty Village but I tell you what, the chances of that place becoming ghetto-ized is much higher than CP. CityPlace is too highly visible and analyzed because its location is so central. Even in New York, the old rules of real estate always remain: location, location, location. Ghetto-ization results most from isolation - the Bronx, Bed-Sty, Harlem etc. - these are areas that became isolated because of low visitation but ALSO because no one "sees" these areas. They arent visible. CityPlace is located next to Rogers Center. It appears in every skyline photo of Toronto. Everytime, they do a picture of Toronto, Cityplace is there. If CityPlace becomes a ghetto, understand this: Toronto as a whole will also develop a reputation as a poor city across the entire world. Every international event would be marked by tourists travelling east on the Gardiner to the Rogers Center or Air Canada and seeing overt poverty everywhere as they drive into the city. It would be very interesting to witness the detoriation of CityPlace, right before the eyes of such a large population of the public. It would be a very rare phenomenan.

But as this articles proves, the paranoia of this very thing happening means it will unlikely ever happen. Even as Cityplace is a fine neighborhood by any international standards - (you will find few CP residents complaining. Most residents love living in CP) -, they are already writing articles fearing the "ghetto-ization" of CP prematurely before the development is even done! Look at the great attention given here! Could you imagine if this attention was given to "Jane-and-Finch" back in the day? It would be Yorkville. But guess what, Jane and Finch is not in a good location, not visible, not visited enough and not given enough attention from major publications for it to ever transform into a desirable neighborhood. IMO they should really be applying their analysis to Liberty Village because that neighborhood is actually in the most danger of turning into a slum (although, I also think even there, it is very unlikely. Although, they are one of the few area downtown that has already shown a 5% decline in real estate value from last year). As an outsider, I can rarely persuade friends to visit there or eat at LV. My place in Cityplace - a block from King West - is very central. Everyone comes here easily and I can walk anywhere that they want to go becuase most of the entertainment in Toronto is relatively close. In fact, on Front and Spadina, I can walk to all the hottest areas in lower West part of the city: Ritz Carlton, Thompson, King West nightlife, Harbourfront activities in the summer, TIFF, Rogers Centre, the Theatre District in seconds. How many Toronto residents can boast that? With the TIFF party moving to King West, this help place CityPlace in an even better position as TIFF is credited for turning Yorkville into the upscale part of the city that it is today. In a city like Manhattan, for comparison, there is no ghetto in an area like CP. In a place where most people enter the city. Dwindling real estate in a prime central highly-visible location? Nowhere. In fact, parts of Harlem closest to the tourist attractions in the Upper East Side are going up in price as demand increases and people move further up north from the 70th up to 80th street etc.. CityPlace is too centrally located and too visible to turn into a ghetto. Adam Vaughan's efforts exemplifies this with his paranoia and concern. Already, there is so much attention (and there isnt even a problem!) GHettos, my friend, do not get attention like that. They are forgotten and invisible until years later people realize the deteroriation. They are forgotten areas.