Is CityPlace Toronto’s next ghetto?

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

UN -- I agree with you about CityPlace, but you are completely off-base wrt Cabbagetown, and you're confusing Regent Park with Cabbagetown when you talk condos. OneCole et al. are cheaper because they're part of an urban renewal project.

 

[44 North]

I think another key point of the article is to point out how goddam insular CP and its residents are. This is especially apparent in your posts. Perhaps that's a reason for people's irritation with it.

To say Cabbagetown and Junction have 'tons of homeless', or that Queen Video and Little Italy are in 'rough looking areas', or that you persuade friends to avoid Liberty Village proves just how much CP is an island. These neighbourhoods are what make Toronto what it is. They're a staple of city life. If someone isn't comfortable with them, then they aren't comfortable with city life.

Cityplace is like a suburban subdivision somehow nestled in the city's southcore.

But I guess we'll just have to wait a generation or two to see how well CP ages, and whether its value increases or decreases. Or whether we get a bunch of 'boat people' who decide to fill 1-bedrooms with two extended families (like what happened in St Jamestown). Only time will tell.

 

[RC8]

I find people in The Annex to be more insular than people in Cityplace. Anecdotal evidence in both accounts, but out of all central Toronto neighbourhoods I've spent a significant amount of time in, The Annex is the one where people are most clueless about what's beyond their own. People who live in Cityplace are for the most part very familiar with Queen W, King W, Financial District, Entertainment District (Richmond, etc), Harbourfront, Chinatown, Yonge, St. Lawrence, and often Liberty Village (though less frequently).

It is true that Queen and King East, Cabbagetown, St. Clair, Danforth, etc. are usually unknown to a lot of residents here, but I think someone who lives in Cityplace is just as likely to have explored Leslieville as someone who lives in Yorkville or The Annex.

 

[toraerach]

I think another key point of the article is to point out how goddam insular CP and its residents are. This is especially apparent in your posts. Perhaps that's a reason for people's irritation with it.

I don't think most people anywhere in this city are especially insular, except, perhaps, for the most vocal of neighbourhood boosters (and that goes just as much for the Beaches as it does for CityPlace).

CityPlace may, someday, become a ghetto. We can't and won't know it's going to happen until it happens, and I don't see the neighbourhood transitioning that much for a couple decades at least. All neighbourhoods go through phases, and it is absolutely futile trying to guess what may or may not happen. Does anyone think the original builders and occupants of, say, Parkdale even guessed that it would go through a steady decline, that it would become a centre for the Tibetan community in Canada, that it would grow into a hipster haven? Of course they didn't. As far as they were concerned, it was a nice little streetcar suburb away from the dirty and overcrowded inner city, and, presumably, they thought it would stay that way. It's entirely possible that CityPlace may one day decline, it's also possible that it will become, I don't know, Toronto's thriving Little Malawi or something. The huge socio-economic factors that influence neighbourhoods' fortunes are far too complex and changeable to meaningfully predict anything at this very early stage.

Given, lately, that the trends indicate a suburbanization of poverty, I doubt any neighbourhood this close to the core will become a ghetto anytime soon. And given Tower Renewal and new developments in the pipeline for St. James Town, it's just as likely that neighbourhood could become "the next CityPlace." As "ghettos" go, you can do a hell of a lot worse than St. James Town, even within Toronto.

 

[UNO3003]

UN -- I agree with you about CityPlace, but you are completely off-base wrt Cabbagetown, and you're confusing Regent Park with Cabbagetown when you talk condos. OneCole et al. are cheaper because they're part of an urban renewal project.

How so? I understand the Cabbagetown has very expensive Victorian homes but Im talking about condos. My friend's condo right on Parliament would never go for the same price in the west part of the city where I live. He paid much less and the nice unit above him also went for so little, I considered scooping it up.

If you read, the wikipedia definition of Cabbagetown, a section describes the area quite accurately if you ask me:

Despite gentrification, residents from public housing projects and affluent home owners mingle at a discount supermarket and a community medical clinic. Panhandling and drug-dealing are part of the urban landscape; so are gourmet shops, upscale boutiques and arts festivals, booklaunches and wine-tastings at local restaurants. Paradoxically, "The Gerrard and Parliament neighborhood, located near Dundas and Sherbourne Streets, has the largest concentration of homeless shelters and drop-in centres in Canada. The area is also distinguished by a large number of rooming houses and other forms of low income housing."[5] Safety Audit Report Card –Gerrard Street East and Parliament Street – Ward 27; Audit conducted on 29 January 2008

BTW, I do not dislike Cabbagetown at all. I like the area alot. Probably one of my favorite areas in the city. I used to live on the border of it on Ontario St. for very long time and have great memories. I think Parliament street particularly is a great area with the perfect mix of people. Reminds me alot of Brooklyn Hieghts. But I also had my car broken into twice back then. We had drug dealers who used to make deals in our parking lot all the time also. Its all good. Im just saying if this ever happened in Cityplace, jesus christ, at the rate people are talking, everyone would be saying its Compton, LA.

Im very aware of Regent Park and the difference but the that housing is close enough that the neighborhood and it is mixed with all kinds of people. In fact, this is what alot of people like about the area, in my experience

 

[UNO3003]

I think another key point of the article is to point out how goddam insular CP and its residents are. This is especially apparent in your posts. Perhaps that's a reason for people's irritation with it

Insular might be a jab at me but my friend, I can absolutely garuntee you that I have lived in and visited many more areas in Toronto than you have. I have lived all over the city throughout my teenage years and twenties. But once again, your comments further substantiate to me that the Cityplace hate has more to do with hipsters complaining about Cityplace's lack of "authenticity" and its lacking in a real city experience etc. In my experience, its alot of younger kids who hate CityPlace because they think CityPlace is filled with spoiled Mississauga kids who dont know about that little authentic Brazilian restaurant on College st. or whatever. I have lived in so many cities,man, this stuff is nothing new to me. In Brooklyn, you have entire parts of the city like Williamsburg where people are absorbed with the mentality. It doesnt change the fact that their property is cheaper than Battery Park City.

To say Cabbagetown and Junction have 'tons of homeless', or that Queen Video and Little Italy are in 'rough looking areas', or that you persuade friends to avoid Liberty Village proves just how much CP is an island. These neighbourhoods are what make Toronto what it is. They're a staple of city life. If someone isn't comfortable with them, then they aren't comfortable with city life.

You misread my quote. I actually encourage my friends to go to Liberty Village but no ones wants to go there, because it is limited with only a few bars and the perception is, that its hard to get out of. I dont dislike the area at all. Queen Video is my main video store so yes, I like it. But right on Queen on Spadina, it is a popular corner for lots of homeless - you are going to deny this are you? I have lived in Toronto for a very long time. Queen/Bathurst all the way Queen/Spadina is not exactly the Ritz Carlton. I do not dislike the area. I have alot of experience there, as my girlfriend works on the strip and half-grew up down the street, but my point is: If one ounce of the graffiti or homeless that was there was in CityPlace, believe me, CP would be even more railroaded - they would call it a total ghetto. (Now, bear in mind, I love graffitti and am good friends with several well-known graffiti artists because lord knows, you will probably take that comment, distort it and run with it to help further paint your story about CP as filled with insular spoiled 905er non-city people. Sheez).

I love all areas of Toronto that I listed. I spend alot of time in the Junction, as I have friends there. The area is great but guess what, it has much more elements of a ghetto than CP. Lets be real for once. But to be honest, after living in NEw York, I dont think of anywhere in Toronto as dangerous or ghetto-ized at all.

Once again, you are trying to paint with a broad brush and stigmatize CityPlace residents as these "other" people. Dude, I have lived all over this city and stayed all kinds of places and can name more esoteric spots than most people - believe me. But that doesnt mean, as cool as Kengsington Market is, that the property is of more value or that it is less ghetto-ized than CityPlace.

And this is my point, CityPlace hate is about the discontent mocking the suburbanites - not really a realistic discussion about real-estate value.



Cityplace is like a suburban subdivision somehow nestled in the city's southcore.

But I guess we'll just have to wait a generation or two to see how well CP ages, and whether its value increases or decreases. Or whether we get a bunch of 'boat people' who decide to fill 1-bedrooms with two extended families (like what happened in St Jamestown). Only time will tell.

Sure we will see. but if that happens, you can kiss Toronto's international reputation goodbye. In fact, Toronto is so well-known and CityPlace is so visible as part of Toronto, Id say Canada's reputation, in general, will take an enormous beating if there is ghetto sitting right on the skyline next to the CN Tower. Trust me on this.

 

[adma]

Er, UNO3003, you have a point about the overstatement--I mean, I agree; Cityplace'll only truly go "ghetto" if Toronto goes the way of Detroit or Johannesburg. But I think you're also over-defensively overreacting to the overstatement--and with a tone that's analogous to someone defending teardowns in Forest Hill or wherever else...

 

[UNO3003]

Er, UNO3003, you have a point about the overstatement--I mean, I agree; Cityplace'll only truly go "ghetto" if Toronto goes the way of Detroit or Johannesburg. But I think you're also over-defensively overreacting to the overstatement--and with a tone that's analogous to someone defending teardowns in Forest Hill or wherever else...

Not really trying to defend CP's negatives. The area is far from perfect. It obviously needs more retail. Im just frustrated with BS media articles about it. (FOr instance, the great irony in the article is that Adam Vaughn tries to position himself as a champion for CP retail but he actually fought to prevent the opening of Fox and Fiddle, for instance and he continues to be an obstacle preventing destination retail). CP is not my favorite Toronto neighborhood, but I moved to Front and Spadina long before there was anything in the area and already there is a massive difference. There is alot of hate for the area but there was nothing there before. At least, the developers tried to fix an area that was percieved as unlivable. For instance, CP wont the get any credit but King West has developed in large part because CP area residents got tired of walking over to Clubland.

Guess Im just very tired with the phony exagerrated criticisms and the CP ghetto one is just the most extreme example. In addition, it gets very tiresome when folks tend to group CityPlace as one place where every building and resident is exactly the same. Every building is different with different issues and sometimes, different locations. The people in CP come from all kinds of backgrounds.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

How so? I understand the Cabbagetown has very expensive Victorian homes but Im talking about condos. My friend's condo right on Parliament would never go for the same price in the west part of the city where I live. He paid much less and the nice unit above him also went for so little, I considered scooping it up.

Im very aware of Regent Park and the difference but the that housing is close enough that the neighborhood and it is mixed with all kinds of people. In fact, this is what alot of people like about the area, in my experience

I'll stop arguing with you, but if you lived on Ontario, you're bs'ing if you say you don't know the difference between Cabbagetown and the new condos on Parliament. To put it into CityPlace terms, it would be like my saying the condos on QQ or Lakeshore are part of CityPlace, because they're close to them. It's just not true.

No need to stretch your argument to defend CP. In fact, right now you're the equivalent of a defender of free markets using Ayn Rand as a reference: you're sinking your own argument while trying to defend it.

 

[44 North]

but my point is: If one ounce of the graffiti or homeless that was there was in CityPlace, believe me, CP would be even more railroaded - they would call it a total ghetto.

IMO, this scenario would make me think the opposite of CP. I'd see graffiti and think "hey, people here have kids. And not just babies, but actual teens". This would signify that the area has a variety of age groups, income groups, and a more mixed demographic. So I think it would be less likely to have the potential for across-the-board property depreciation and 'ghettoization'.

If it had a few homeless bumming around, it would also have the ills associated with street people. This would show that residents in the area are willing to deal with the BS of city life and that the neighbourhood is not simply a suburb nestled downtown. It also points to an area with varied demographics, zoning, and again, less likely to experience uniform depreciation of its similarly-aged buildings.

So my point is, 'ghettoization' is not simply having bums or graffiti. It's about a slow downfall amongst a specific neighbourhood with buildings of similar age and style (e.g Flemingdon, Thorncliffe, Jamestown). So having a few street people and seedy buildings does not signify a ghetto. However, having eight highrises clustered together - with tenants classified as "poor" - does.

But I do agree that CP more than likely will not become a poor trap. Nor does anywhere in Toronto have anything remotely classified as truly ghetto.

 

[junctionist]

The CityPlace hate stems alot from jealousy. Its just the truth. All the arguements I hear from people who spout off there anti-CityPlace tirades are all living in areas like the Junction, CabbageTown etc. which are nice neighborhoods but just looking at them, superficially actually more closely resemble ghettos with tons of homeless people everywhere and older shabby buildings. The hate for CityPlace stems from the feeling that the area is filled suburbanite ex-905ers who lack "city" experience. Its the classic "geek-hates-the-cheerleader" mentality. Its not a coincedence that the same publication will write winning reviews for little "underdog" boutique places like Queen Video in rough looking areas, restaurants in rough-around-the-edges Littly Italy, or the scene along Ossington/Queen - all much poorer and less wealthy areas. I love those areas but all of those areas could even more easily be deemed as way more ghetto-ized, so why all of this great concern for CityPlace? This is jealousy masked as denigration.

It's not jealousy. This idea didn't receive an adequate response. The traditional neighbourhoods that you mention have substantial concentrations of stores and businesses, and also a high density of people. People come from around the city and sometimes even from other cities to visit these places for different reasons, be it the shopping, retail, culture, food, or just to explore. The built form comprises well over a century of interesting buildings in diverse styles. The sidewalks are often full of people. Cultural works may be produced as well as good food and design. These neighbourhoods have a mix of working class and middle class people. There is some poverty, and sometimes you may see some buildings or infrastructure that isn't in the best of shape. (Certainly not streets full of homeless people like your hyperbole. It should be also be noted at this point that Cityplace will age too and have public housing.) In defending Cityplace, don't denigrate these great neighbourhoods, even if it's just "superficially". They aren't even close to ghettos.

The people writing for these publications often know the vibrant traditional neighbourhoods best and see their merits right away. Jane Jacobs has been very influential in Toronto with her work defending these kinds of neighbourhoods. And when visiting other cities for tourism, it's places like these that people love to find in cities. The popular traditional neighbourhoods can provide a certain joie de vivre if you enjoy what they have to offer. Some neighbourhoods are more working class in character and may have many recent immigrants, but they remain successful area. Some immigrants start business, people buy homes and slowly improve them, the public transit is decent, and the streets are filled with people at various times of the day discouraging crime.

Cityplace is different, and writers might not know what to make of it. It's mostly vertical. Its potential for diverse uses like businesses and residential in the same spaces seems more ambiguous, and it's not on one of the traditional corridors which link many neighbourhoods like the major streets in Toronto. Similar mass housing projects have had varying levels of success. These aren't points of criticism of Cityplace; they're just facts. They may be used in erroneous and sensationalistic claims by people who don't know what to say about something so different than what they've loved and grown accustomed to. To say it's jealousy and then to denigrate these great old neighbourhoods is misguided and foolish.

I love those neighbourhoods and am also sceptical about the doomsayers when it comes to Cityplace. Just continue to point out criticisms based on faulty reasoning or which aren't based on anything concrete. Noting the diversity in Cityplace and the efforts for better retail is good. Cityplace needs to be fashioned in a way that reaches out to the tastemakers who swear by the traditional nabes. Amenities like an annual street festival, farmer's markets, charity events, and getting the streetcar line built may be effective in ending the disconnect and anchoring the area in the city's culture in a positive way. Make the naysayers' hearts melt. The public art alone isn't going to cut it.

 

[adma]

Not really trying to defend CP's negatives. The area is far from perfect. It obviously needs more retail. Im just frustrated with BS media articles about it. (FOr instance, the great irony in the article is that Adam Vaughn tries to position himself as a champion for CP retail but he actually fought to prevent the opening of Fox and Fiddle, for instance and he continues to be an obstacle preventing destination retail). CP is not my favorite Toronto neighborhood, but I moved to Front and Spadina long before there was anything in the area and already there is a massive difference. There is alot of hate for the area but there was nothing there before. At least, the developers tried to fix an area that was percieved as unlivable. For instance, CP wont the get any credit but King West has developed in large part because CP area residents got tired of walking over to Clubland.

Guess Im just very tired with the phony exagerrated criticisms and the CP ghetto one is just the most extreme example. In addition, it gets very tiresome when folks tend to group CityPlace as one place where every building and resident is exactly the same. Every building is different with different issues and sometimes, different locations. The people in CP come from all kinds of backgrounds.

But, to repeat the response mantra here--the problem is in your "ur just jealous" tone. Which is about as low a form of urban criticism as one gets--it's the kind of thing McMansion-defenders engage in. Makes me wonder who the "jealous" one is--particularly as this is the only thread you've participated in thus far, thus smelling of an axe to grind, or something.

Oh, and if anything's "ghetto", it's your unapostrophized "Im".

 

[platinum_babie]

I like my place at Cityplace

I currently own, and am a resident of, a unit at cityplace. I am away from home a lot for work reasons but I love my place. I am also often concerned about how well-kept these condos are going to be in the long-run. The argument that a large number of tenants live there holds true. Cigarette butts on my balcony from ppl above me make me really upset, as does broken bottles on the pavement from the partiers on a Saturday night. There's also dog crap everywhere.

The fact that this article is pointing out many of the problems in the area, and that the residents are gathering together to do something about it, makes me really happy. Although I don't agree that CP will become the next ghetto, as walking distance to the CN tower, king west village, china town, queen west and the easy drive off of gardiner makes living in the area extremely convenient.

My main concern is the long-term maintenance of these glass buildings.

I also wonder whether bringing in schools and community centres will be driving the the younger population away.

 

[wopchop]

I feel like the people who write these articles, or talk about these places becoming ghettos, have never lived in or even visited a real ghetto.

 

[adma]

At worst, I suspect that Cityplace'll end up more like some of the more jerrybuilt 80s Bay Street condos'n'stuff (1001 Bay, The Liberties, etc)--or for that matter, like those infamous Huang & Danczkays of the same period along Queen's Quay. They may be cheap crud; but they're not ghetto--"neighbourhood" demos conspire against it. At worst, they're Guido crash pads...