How come sheppard was chosen instead of Finch east for the subway?

[CanadianNational]

I heard somewhere that the Sheppard line was basically a gift from Mike Harris to Lastman for allowing amalgamation. Since amalgamation seems to have had a political impetus behind it as much as a financial one, does anyone think there's any truth to this?

 

[nfitz]

Sheppard was not finished, thats why. It needs to be done.

That's hardly a basis for selection of projects for funding.

The Gardiner expressway wasn't finished, but was instead left dangling in mid-air at Leslie Street. Should it have been finished? The Allan (Spadina) Expressway wasn't finished, but instead dead-ended at Eglinton. Should it have been finished?

For the amount of money that is proposed to complete Sheppard, we could instead build the Finch West LRT, the Eglinton East LRT, The Scarbough-Malvern LRT, and extend the SRT to Malven Centre. The combined ridership on those routes is much higher than on the Sheppard Extension.

 

[doady]

The fact you liken a subway line to a freeway just shows how delusional you are.

 

[uptownto]

For the amount of money that is proposed to complete Sheppard, we could instead build the Finch West LRT, the Eglinton East LRT, The Scarbough-Malvern LRT, and extend the SRT to Malven Centre. The combined ridership on those routes is much higher than on the Sheppard Extension.

Would these LRTs in the nether regions serve to reduce gridlock on the streets of Toronto by providing a real alternative to the car, or simply serve to improve the lot of the existing bus passengers?

If the latter, then in my mind, we're having the wrong conversation about what problem we're trying to solve.

 

[Voltz]

Would these LRTs in the nether regions serve to reduce gridlock on the streets of Toronto by providing a real alternative to the car, or simply serve to improve the lot of the existing bus passengers?

If the latter, then in my mind, we're having the wrong conversation about what problem we're trying to solve.

That problem can not be solved, no transit plan will ever reduce gridlock.

 

[gweed123]

That problem can not be solved, no transit plan will ever reduce gridlock.

Sure it will. I think what you mean to say is that no transit plan will ever "eliminate" gridlock. The Yonge St subway reduced gridlock significantly on Yonge St when it was built, because immediately thousands of people had a faster trip downtown than they had with the streetcars.

Gridlock is simply a measure of the delta between the time it should take to get from Point A to Point B under free-flowing traffic conditions vs the time it actually takes. If a subway helps reduce that delta from 5x to 4x, it still reduced gridlock for some people.

Would these LRTs in the nether regions serve to reduce gridlock on the streets of Toronto by providing a real alternative to the car, or simply serve to improve the lot of the existing bus passengers?

If the latter, then in my mind, we're having the wrong conversation about what problem we're trying to solve.

This is why for a lot of trips in Toronto, they would be better served by an increase in GO service (higher frequencies and more stops inside of Toronto) vs LRT on a few select corridors.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Yea have those tolls and stuff pay into something like that citywide.

 

[nfitz]

Would these LRTs in the nether regions serve to reduce gridlock on the streets of Toronto by providing a real alternative to the car, or simply serve to improve the lot of the existing bus passengers?

If the latter, then in my mind, we're having the wrong conversation about what problem we're trying to solve.

If you recall, the whole reason Toronto was doing this, is the forecast that the roads will get much more congested, and slower, by 2031, especially in the 416 suburbs. Many of the segments where LRT was chosen are forecast to be some of the worst by 2031. The idea is, if we don't build it, it will become nigh impossible to move. So transit becomes the only real alternative ... which then in turn leads to a bit less road congestion.

Congestion however is here to stay, as long as car ownership stays where it is now, and we don't toll roads. I wouldn't use the term grid lock - I don't see that very often in Toronto.

 

[Electrify]

Seeing as this thread has evolved into the Sheppard Debate 2.0, allow me to pose this question: IF Ford agrees to a surface Eglinton line and cut the Finch line, could the $2 billion saved be used to extend the Sheppard line west to Downsview? I asked Steve Munro on his blog, and he said no but seemed to think it would be only $1 billion saved. Not sure if this was a typo, or if he was just enjoying the football game too much to think clearly.

From a network standpoint, I'd argue it is much more important to close the YUS loop at the top than it is to connect the Yonge and Scarborough lines.

 

[andrewpmk]

Would these LRTs in the nether regions serve to reduce gridlock on the streets of Toronto by providing a real alternative to the car, or simply serve to improve the lot of the existing bus passengers?

If the latter, then in my mind, we're having the wrong conversation about what problem we're trying to solve.

Basically the latter. The Sheppard streetcar would have made the trip for bus #85/190 passengers a little bit faster and somewhat more comfortable. However there still would have been the stupid transfer at Don Mills & Sheppard, and it wouldn't have been very fast, and it would have still cost a billion dollars and we would have to rip it out and replace it with subway once it inevitably becomes overcrowded. It wouldn't have diverted riders on bus #39/199 or other parallel bus routes, and it wouldn't have diverted very many car drivers who currently drive on Sheppard, Finch, York Mills or 401 simply because the streetcar would have been much much slower for many trips than driving even in rush hour traffic especially with the transfer. If we are just trying to improve bus service, we should just buy some articulated buses, paint some bus lanes, and buy some proof of payment vending machines like what Viva has. This way we could have improved every one of the main bus routes in Toronto for a relatively low cost.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

More like the mid-late 80s. I lived on Willowdale Avenue in 1990, and densification was well underway by then - it was quite interesting to watch.

True, but it took about a 6-year break following the 1989 real estate bubble. The pre-bubble development in NYCC was relatively limited in comparison to what has happened post-bubble.

 

[Dan416]

And this is exactly why your opinion carries no weight.

It's a question of $. If Ford accepts one or some of Chong's funding suggestions, then by all means build it. I just can't see Ford being that progressive, and he'll continue to insist that it be built, but won't approve any way to fund it.

However, if all we have is $1-billion scrounged around from here, there, and everywhere ... and it will only pay to extend to Victoria Park ... than we are better off spending that $1-billion on a project that would have a lot more impact. Like the Finch West LRT.

Just because Ford is an idiot doesn't mean we shouldn't look at Chong's suggestions and use them to finish the Sheppard subway.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sorry, if you are going to impose tolls, have added surcharges/user fees and the like for 50 years, it should go to a project that will require all the financial resources available to the city to implement, and one that will provide the maximum immediate and long-term return, i.e. DRL.

AoD

 

[11th]

Sorry, if you are going to impose tolls, have added surcharges/user fees and the like for 50 years, it should go to a project that will require all the financial resources available to the city to implement, and one that will provide the maximum immediate and long-term return, i.e. DRL.

AoD

DRL should be the priority, the other big projects can come after; at least with the new tax/toll revenues, we'll know those will be built and not just fantasies waiting for funding from prov/fed.

 

[Dan416]

OK then let's cancel everything we're doing right now until the DRL is done being studied and an alignment is chosen and its all funded.