How come sheppard was chosen instead of Finch east for the subway?

[Dan416]

I think that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

[M II A II R II K]

But Sheppard even where the subway runs is still a suburban arterial street, and not anything like a Yonge St. in North York.

 

[adma]

If one considers *when* the Sheppard subway was first conceived, it's the same rationale that once might have conceived a Queen subway ahead of the Bloor subway. (Back in the 70s/80s or so, Finch was nosebleed country by comparison.)

 

[11th]

But Sheppard even where the subway runs is still a suburban arterial street, and not anything like a Yonge St. in North York.

Yonge was extended to Finch in 1974. Yonge Street in NYCC only starts to really dense up in the mid-late 90s. Just recall what it was like at SE corner of Yonge/Empress in mid 90s.

 

[Palma]

Finch would have served that purpose just as well.

The truth is that it was studied in detail during the Network 2011 process. Both alternatives were studied, including a Finch hydro corridor option, and Sheppard was found to have better potential for intensification, better ridership potential, better connections to north-south bus routes, easier constructibility, and a much better connection to Scarborough Centre--the major transit hub and trip generator in Scarborough.

The study also indicated that if the Sheppard subway were completed to STC, many people currently riding on the Finch bus would switch to the north-south bus routes to the Sheppard line. That would dramatically reduce the congestion issues on Finch East.

But again Finch is the last major east west street till you get to Steeles and in Vaughan so it would have made more sense. But I guess there are parts of Sheppard like near Bayview that are more valuable than parts along Finch.

But again we all know these studies show what the TTC is told they need to show and what the TTC wants the consultants reports to show. In that case Mayor Lastman. Its amazaing that at the time of pushing Sheppard, the line was suppose to have so many riders and then I hear Adam Giambrone when he was on The Agenda in the past 1 year say Sheppard was a white elephant (something like that). The numbers show what the consultants of those studies are told to show, I have seen this comment before on numerous occasions. and one time it was by a poster whose uncle I think it was either worked at the TTC or was one of those consultants doing the work.

 

[Palma]

Deamalgamation can done with a bill. And if you don't think some people would be all for it....

Perhaps it can join Vaughah sinxce its just 2 avenues north of it

 

[unimaginative2]

The reality is that Sheppard isn't a "white elephant" and it carries ridership that is comparable to or higher than many other subway lines around the world. Most of the criticism it receives is from people ideologically opposed to subways and/or Mel Lastman. Sheppard would be even busier if it were extended to the east to connect to busy north-south bus routes and the bus hub at Scarborough Centre.

If you read the Network 2011 study, you'll see that Sheppard makes by far the most sense of the three proposed alignments. Finch has less potential for redevelopment, it connects poorly to the main transit hub in Scarborough, and it serves fewer major trip generators.

 

[nfitz]

Deamalgamation crippled Montreal forever unless a politician will have the guts to merge the Island and ignore the Anglophones against it

It's isn't primarily an anglophone vs francophone thing. It's a suburbs vs downtown thing. The poorly managed suburbs voted to go with the city. Francophones in the suburbs also voted for deamalgamation - Montréal-Est voted to demerge, and it's less than 5% anglophone.

Yonge Street in NYCC only starts to really dense up in the mid-late 90s.

More like the mid-late 80s. I lived on Willowdale Avenue in 1990, and densification was well underway by then - it was quite interesting to watch.

 

[Electrify]

Thing is, much of the growth which has happened along Sheppard could and should have happened along Finch, for the reasons explained in my previous post. Sheppard should have remained as low density as possible. Somewhere between Eglinton Ave in Scarborough and Highway 7 in Thornhill.

Downtown Scarborough should have been constructed around Kennedy station, if not around Eglinton, Kingston, and Markham (the original downtown). Build a mall at McCowan and 401 if you want, but as is it represents a textbook example of how NOT to construct a new downtown. Both in design and location.

 

[adma]

Or you could just as well argue mid-late 70s--the era of the Sheppard Centre and the Federal Building and the new North York Civic Centre; and maybe even the Madison Centre was conceived/started at this time. (Though maybe it was more Edge-Citification than densification per se, given that some of the emblems of NYCC modernity--the CIL/Catholic School Board ensemble, for instance--weren't exactly "dense".)

North of Empress, though, it was clearly stripsville into infinity, with a few could-be-anywhere apartment slabs as punctuation...

 

[rbt]

The reality is that Sheppard isn't a "white elephant" and it carries ridership that is comparable to or higher than many other subway lines around the world.

If you accept that subways in Toronto do not make a profit, then Sheppard is a success.

If you believe that subways make a profit (as we sometimes believe the Yonge/Bloor line do) then Sheppard is a pretty severe failure as it costs about the same to operate (per passenger subsidy) as the buses it replaced.



I personally don't think Sheppard is a failure operating wise. I believe it is a failure to spend transit capital dollars wisely based strictly on what we got out of it compared to other opportunities available at that time.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The reality is that Sheppard isn't a "white elephant" and it carries ridership that is comparable to or higher than many other subway lines around the world. Most of the criticism it receives is from people ideologically opposed to subways and/or Mel Lastman. Sheppard would be even busier if it were extended to the east to connect to busy north-south bus routes and the bus hub at Scarborough Centre.

If you read the Network 2011 study, you'll see that Sheppard makes by far the most sense of the three proposed alignments. Finch has less potential for redevelopment, it connects poorly to the main transit hub in Scarborough, and it serves fewer major trip generators.

That does not change the fact it was expensive to build and well be to extend. Unless we bring in new taxes.

 

[doady]

It is hard to compare Sheppard to the other subway lines considering it is only few km long. It is hard for a subway line to become the major east-west route it was meant to be when only a few km of it is built, not the optimal length for a subway line. No connection to the Spadina line, no connection Scarbrough Centre, only minimal replacement of Sheppard buses, and no connection to all those north-south bus routes in Scarborough, which are all much busier than the Leslie and Bayview buses.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It is hard to compare Sheppard to the other subway lines considering it is only few km long. It is hard for a subway line to become the major east-west route it was meant to be when only a few km of it is built, not the optimal length for a subway line. No connection to the Spadina line, no connection Scarbrough Centre, only minimal replacement of Sheppard buses, and no connection to all those north-south bus routes in Scarborough, which are all much busier than the Leslie and Bayview buses.

Agreed, Just another planning disaster in Toronto.

 

[Electrify]

The way some talk about the outer 416, I wonder if they have been north of Lawrence since the mid 1970s. There are TONS of high rise clusters all around the former boroughs. More are going up all the time too. Not only this, but many of these buildings house lower income people as well, thus are more likely to use transit than to drive. Finally, the longer distances between land uses increases the likelihood that they will use transit over walking.

I'm not dying that the Sheppard subway should be extended in its current form, but the way some here talk about the outer 416 you would think there is no difference between North York and Oakville.