How come sheppard was chosen instead of Finch east for the subway?

[Paleo]

The reality is that Sheppard isn't a "white elephant" and it carries ridership that is comparable to or higher than many other subway lines around the world. Most of the criticism it receives is from people ideologically opposed to subways and/or Mel Lastman. Sheppard would be even busier if it were extended to the east to connect to busy north-south bus routes and the bus hub at Scarborough Centre.

You don't need a full metro to carry 50,000 per day.

 

[andrewpmk]

You don't need a full metro to carry 50,000 per day.

1. The line would be much fuller if it were extended. The parallel Highway 401 carries almost an order of magnitude more people than the subway. With connections to all the busy north south bus routes in Scarborough it would be heavily used.
2. The Sheppard subway can be quite full in rush hour. Although packed 4 car trains running every 5 minutes is below the maximum capacity of the line, it would overwhelm a LRT line, which is limited to shorter trains and 4-5 minute headways with full signal priority. If Sheppard were built as LRT the entire length to begin with, I guarantee you that it would be severely overcrowded.
3. The Canada Line in Vancouver carries fewer people per km than the Sheppard line does (it carries more people total but it is a longer line, if you divide ridership by length in km Sheppard outperforms the Canada Line). This is in spite of the fact that the Canada Line is connected to Vancouver Airport and Downtown Vancouver. No one seem to think that the Canada Line is unsuccessful.
4. There are tons of high rise buildings in North York Centre and along the Sheppard/401 corridor. The people who are opposed to the Sheppard Subway seem to be the sort of people who never go north of Eglinton, and the sort of people who think that Toronto's overcrowded and horrendously slow downtown streetcar system is perfectly adequate. Anyone who visits this area regularly, anyone who has sat in traffic going 10km/h on the 401 in rush hour knows that a subway is needed. (Also a downtown subway along Queen or King is needed to replace our lousy streetcar system but this is a different issue altogether).

 

[rbt]

1. The line would be much fuller if it were extended. The parallel Highway 401 carries almost an order of magnitude more people than the subway. With connections to all the busy north south bus routes in Scarborough it would be heavily used.

I still don't understand why a person from Oakville driving to Markham will do so via the Sheppard subway instead of driving.

Here's a hint, the vast majority of traffic on the 401 does not originate or terminate on Sheppard.

I'm pretty certain an electrified LakeShore line with 10 minute frequencies would do more to divert traffic from 401. We can do that for less than $3B ($1B of that is for operating subsidies over 30 years).

 

[EnviroTO]

The reality is that Sheppard isn't a "white elephant" and it carries ridership that is comparable to or higher than many other subway lines around the world. Most of the criticism it receives is from people ideologically opposed to subways and/or Mel Lastman. Sheppard would be even busier if it were extended to the east to connect to busy north-south bus routes and the bus hub at Scarborough Centre.

The reality is that it makes no sense to compare to the rest of the world. The rest of the world includes many overbuilt showpieces. What makes sense is to compare it to what could have been built with the same money to derive greater value. Who can argue that Sheppard was the single most important place to build heavy rail capacity in the city, or can say that the majority of people starting journeys in that corridor intent to travel more east-west to a destination on transit than north-south, without being completely out of touch with reality. If a DRL was built to Don Mills and Sheppard the Sheppard subway would be a ghost town because it doesn't take people where they want to go, it takes them to a different subway which takes them where they want to go. If a whole list of business case analyses was created with many different new subway route possibilities, subway extension possibilities, new LRT route possibilities, new BRT possibilities, and new surface rail possibilities the Sheppard subway would not be at the top of the list for cost benefit ratings, it wouldn't be at the top of the list for subway projects either. You can morph that into some sort of hate for Mel Lastman or subways in your mind if you like but that doesn't make it the truth.

 

[EnviroTO]

Here's a hint, the vast majority of traffic on the 401 does not originate or terminate on Sheppard.

Exactly. People keep talking about the cross town demand that the Sheppard subway serves but that demand, even with the subway reaching Scarborough Centre, doesn't exist. The 401 isn't filled with people driving between SCC and Yonge, it is filled with people driving from all over the GTA. If this was not the case the busiest exits would be between SCC and Yonge (excluding DVP/404) and 401 traffic would drop off significantly outside the Yonge to SCC section of the 401. It doesn't! The reality is that if you watch all the people come off the Sheppard subway at Yonge station the people aren't using it to go east-west... they go straight to the southbound subway platform and head south, they don't head to the bus platform to go further west in large numbers, and they don't head to the northbound platform in large numbers either. The Sheppard subway is largely being used like a spur of the Yonge line and if you look at a map it isn't giving people a very direct route to where they actually want to go.

 

[nfitz]

The Sheppard subway is largely being used like a spur of the Yonge line and if you look at a map it isn't giving people a very direct route to where they actually want to go.

Bingo - which is why extending both the Sheppard line AND Eglinton Line to Scarborough Centre is such a huge waste of money.

Travel time from Don Mills to Bloor-Yonge is currently 29 minutes. Travel time from Don Mills to Scarborough Centre will be another 14 minutes, so that's 44 minutes. Travel from Scarborough Centre to Bloor-Yonge is 36 minutes. It's been estimated that travel from Scarborough Centre to Bloor-Yonge on the Eglinton-Crosstown will be about the same time as changing at Kennedy (I get 38 minutes using 30 minutes on the Crosstown and 8 on the Yonge). It will actually be quicker for someone living at Agincourt Subway station to take the subway to SRT and change to the Crosstown - which will do nothing to increase the peak point ridership on Sheppard.

Travel time from Don Mills to Eglinton is currently 21 minutes. So 35 minutes from Scarborough Centre to Eglinton via the Sheppard Subway. And 30 minutes to get there on the Eglinton-Crosstown line. Sheppard isn't taking most people where they want to go, and will get them there slower than other lines.

 

[andrewpmk]

I still don't understand why a person from Oakville driving to Markham will do so via the Sheppard subway instead of driving.

Here's a hint, the vast majority of traffic on the 401 does not originate or terminate on Sheppard.

I'm pretty certain an electrified LakeShore line with 10 minute frequencies would do more to divert traffic from 401. We can do that for less than $3B ($1B of that is for operating subsidies over 30 years).

I think that a substantial proportion of people who currently drive on the 401 or arterial roads like Sheppard or take various overcrowded east-west TTC bus routes will be able to use either the Sheppard subway or Eglinton subway in conjunction with 1-2 bus routes. This is especially true for people who work in North York Centre & Consumers Rd coming from Scarborough, people working in Yonge/Eglinton coming from Scarborough and Mississauga, and people working near Pearson Airport coming from North York/Yonge & Eglinton/Scarborough. However pretty much any trip within the northern part of Toronto (and some to/from Mississauga and York Region as well) will be possible with either the Sheppard or Eglinton line and a bus at either end, whether people will choose to do this depends on how convenient it is for their trip and how congested the 401 and other roads are. Obviously a lot of trips that currently use the 401 will not be able to switch to the subway, but many will. Someone commuting from Oakville to Markham (which I think is a small minority, because that is an outrageously long commute) would probably use the GO 407 West bus + Viva Purple instead, indeed expanded express buses on the 407 and/or tolling the 401 and running express buses is the best way of dealing with those really long commutes. The Lakeshore line might serve a small proportion of 401 commuters but I expect it would be tiny since it doesn't really go near the 401 except in Durham Region.

 

[Electrify]

Have to work on a project now, but somebody get the numbers. What is the ridership on the Scarborough Centre Rocket, Sheppard East, and other parallel bus routes? What has been the approximate growth rate in ridership with rapid transit projects that have been implemented relatively recently (Viva, Zum, and the current Sheppard subway)?

While these numbers may not be perfect, they should help to draw an estimate of what a completed Sheppard rapid transit line's ridership would be, and we can draw conclusions on what technology would be appropriate from there.

 

[andrewpmk]

The reality is that it makes no sense to compare to the rest of the world. The rest of the world includes many overbuilt showpieces. What makes sense is to compare it to what could have been built with the same money to derive greater value. Who can argue that Sheppard was the single most important place to build heavy rail capacity in the city, or can say that the majority of people starting journeys in that corridor intent to travel more east-west to a destination on transit than north-south, without being completely out of touch with reality. If a DRL was built to Don Mills and Sheppard the Sheppard subway would be a ghost town because it doesn't take people where they want to go, it takes them to a different subway which takes them where they want to go. If a whole list of business case analyses was created with many different new subway route possibilities, subway extension possibilities, new LRT route possibilities, new BRT possibilities, and new surface rail possibilities the Sheppard subway would not be at the top of the list for cost benefit ratings, it wouldn't be at the top of the list for subway projects either. You can morph that into some sort of hate for Mel Lastman or subways in your mind if you like but that doesn't make it the truth.

If the DRL were extended to Don Mills/Sheppard then the Sheppard subway might be underused in its current configuration, but if Sheppard were extended east and west to Downsview and STC it will be full again. Commuters from Scarborough to North York Centre will use it, commuters from Scarborough to York University will use it, and it will be used for trips like Bathurst & Wilson to Pacific Mall (Bus #7, Sheppard line, bus #43), Eglinton & Allen to Consumers Road Business Park (Spadina line, Sheppard line), York Mills & Bayview to Yorkdale (bus #11, Sheppard line, Spadina line) and many other random trips across the city that people might make where most people currently drive using 401 or arterial roads.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We could have run the purple line on finch and run thr SRT or a Bloor Extension up through STC to McCowan and Finch, if it is STC that you are worried about.

 

[11th]

Thing is, much of the growth which has happened along Sheppard could and should have happened along Finch, for the reasons explained in my previous post. Sheppard should have remained as low density as possible. Somewhere between Eglinton Ave in Scarborough and Highway 7 in Thornhill.

If growth were planned, then probably yes. But with organic growth, people settle from south to north in Toronto; and besides, Willowdale/Sheppard was already a cluster of commercial shops before the subdivisions were built. Then you can thank the ravines for the stretch of Finch from Bayview to just west of Leslie.

Downtown Scarborough should have been constructed around Kennedy station, if not around Eglinton, Kingston, and Markham (the original downtown). Build a mall at McCowan and 401 if you want, but as is it represents a textbook example of how NOT to construct a new downtown. Both in design and location.

Or built it at Agincourt station-Kennedy Rd. That'd also work if they really want access to an expressway as well. Then they'll have a subway, a GO station, and the 401.

 

[Dan416]

There's so many Sheppard subway haters you'd think Mel Lastman killed all their firstborn children or something.

I never liked the idea of Sheppard getting a subway before Eglinton.

But come on people, get OVER it. Sheppard is here. It's not going anywhere.

It is NOT a failure by any means. And extending it is only in everyone's best interest, particularly if you believe it is underused.

At this point I'd rather see Eglinton cancelled to finish Sheppard just to annoy all you who dislike Sheppard so much.

 

[nfitz]

At this point I'd rather see Eglinton cancelled to finish Sheppard just to annoy all you who dislike Sheppard so much.

And this is exactly why your opinion carries no weight.

It's a question of $. If Ford accepts one or some of Chong's funding suggestions, then by all means build it. I just can't see Ford being that progressive, and he'll continue to insist that it be built, but won't approve any way to fund it.

However, if all we have is $1-billion scrounged around from here, there, and everywhere ... and it will only pay to extend to Victoria Park ... than we are better off spending that $1-billion on a project that would have a lot more impact. Like the Finch West LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And this is exactly why your opinion carries no weight.

It's a question of $. If Ford accepts one or some of Chong's funding suggestions, then by all means build it. I just can't see Ford being that progressive, and he'll continue to insist that it be built, but won't approve any way to fund it.

However, if all we have is $1-billion scrounged around from here, there, and everywhere ... and it will only pay to extend to Victoria Park ... than we are better off spending that $1-billion on a project that would have a lot more impact. Like the Finch West LRT.

Give a break. Both need to be done. Finch west is not getting a subway nor should it.

There's so many Sheppard subway haters you'd think Mel Lastman killed all their firstborn children or something.

I never liked the idea of Sheppard getting a subway before Eglinton.

But come on people, get OVER it. Sheppard is here. It's not going anywhere.

It is NOT a failure by any means. And extending it is only in everyone's best interest, particularly if you believe it is underused.

At this point I'd rather see Eglinton cancelled to finish Sheppard just to annoy all you who dislike Sheppard so much.

Sheppard was not finished, thats why. It needs to be done.

 

[GenerationW]

Finch west is not getting a subway nor should it.

He said a Finch West LRT, not subway.

If Ford wants to build traditional Toronto subways long-term, he'll need to bring a comprehensive plan (with a DRL among other things) that incorporates many of Chong's proposals to Council. But Ford's transit dilemma is many of those fund-raising tools are anathema to his base. Whatcha gonna do Robbie?