High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

[Garuda]

Further to my post, here is a full copy of the letter from the County of Oxford and a page on their website where they are putting their documents related to HSR:

http://oxfordcounty.ca/Home/Newsroo...High-Speed-Rail-EA-that-considers-all-options

Oxford County is living in the car dominated yesteryear of the late 1900's. A quick search on their website reveals Master Transportation Plan http://www.oxfordcounty.ca/Portals/15/Documents/Roads/COMasterTransportationPlan-final.pdf that details expansion of road networks and more importantly (to them) widening of Highway 401 (pg 11) and little to address increasing passenger rail service. They mention VIA rail service but nothing to encourage more ridership or potential urbanism around the Woodstock or Ingersoll Stations (pg 78-79) to make the city more liveable and walkable.

They're OK with widening the 401 and paving over current farmland but are all up in arms over a new rail line that does the same. Granted the railway will have to be grade separated but a series of over/under passes along the route will keep the lot and concussion roads connected. I wonder if there are similar articles in archives protesting the construction of the 401 from the 1950's?

 

[lenaitch]

I suppose it's not surprising that a largely-rural county isn't turning cartwheels. Outside of the three built-up areas of Woodstock, Ingersoll and Tillsonburg, the general population probably doesn't see at lot of 'what's in it for us'. Roads move them and their products in and around their area - passenger trains between other cities, not so much. It would interesting to see how many rural roads would be crossed by a proposed ROW. When you consider that a standard British-style survey laid out concession roads every mile and a quarter plus sideroads usually every 5 surveyed lots (I say this not knowing the surveys of the County, and realizing not all road allowances are open roads), that is still an awful lot of grade separations. Farmers run the risk of having their fields separated and imagine they would want to ensure that any grade separation accommodates their machinery. If a number of rural roads become severed, it potentially is a major inconvenience and added cost. If it's anything like where I am, they are already dealing with people moving out from the city and complaining about slow vehicles and funny smells.

I had to laugh at "concussion road". I didn't know if that was autotext or a comment on the state of roads in Garuda's area!

 

[crs1026]

It would interesting to see how many rural roads would be crossed by a proposed ROW. When you consider that a standard British-style survey laid out concession roads every mile and a quarter plus sideroads usually every 5 surveyed lots (I say this not knowing the surveys of the County, and realizing not all road allowances are open roads), that is still an awful lot of grade separations. Farmers run the risk of having their fields separated and imagine they would want to ensure that any grade separation accommodates their machinery.

I haven't seen a good high resolution map of the route proposed. The Ontario 2014 feasibility study has a couple of illustrative maps which depict the line as running pretty much straight-line on a diagonal to the road grid. That's the worst possible scenario in terms of number of intersections with roads. It also suggests the number of properties that will be severed could be quite large. I'm guessing it's a very rough first pass, however, and much could be improved upon with a little more design work.

Somehow we built the 407 highway, with all the same dynamics, and a much greater land area acquired. The world did not end when those properties were severed and roads dead ended. We just need to apply similar reasoning and processes to treat the issue fairly and to defuse avoidable resistance.

As much as I think the residents' concerns are an overreaction, I am fearful that Ontario may try to build this line "on the cheap". If it's needed, we need to do it right. That means there will be lots of grade separations, overpasses, underpasses, and frontage roads in the design.

Do I trust Ontario to do the right things up front, without being forced into sensible things by community pressure? Two words: Davenport Diamond.

- Paul

 

[Garuda]

I had to laugh at "concussion road". I didn't know if that was autotext or a comment on the state of roads in Garuda's area!

That was an auto text error.

In my defence, I have driven some concession roads that have almost given me a concussion!

I think something like this might happen as a compromise https://goo.gl/maps/KqpcKYjaDgs
Provide a wide enough private underpass for farm vehicles to pass under.

 

[lenaitch]

I think something like this might happen as a compromise https://goo.gl/maps/KqpcKYjaDgs
Provide a wide enough private underpass for farm vehicles to pass under.

From the street view it doesn't look that big, especially height but, hey, it must be enough for the farmer to use. Jeez, he must have been the local mayor or MPP at some time.

 

[steveintoronto]

That was an auto text error.

In my defence, I have driven some concession roads that have almost given me a concussion!

I think something like this might happen as a compromise https://goo.gl/maps/KqpcKYjaDgs
Provide a wide enough private underpass for farm vehicles to pass under.

So you were "jumping to concussions" over it?

 

[muller877]

Oxford County is living in the car dominated yesteryear of the late 1900's. A quick search on their website reveals Master Transportation Plan http://www.oxfordcounty.ca/Portals/15/Documents/Roads/COMasterTransportationPlan-final.pdf that details expansion of road networks and more importantly (to them) widening of Highway 401 (pg 11) and little to address increasing passenger rail service. They mention VIA rail service but nothing to encourage more ridership or potential urbanism around the Woodstock or Ingersoll Stations (pg 78-79) to make the city more liveable and walkable.

They're OK with widening the 401 and paving over current farmland but are all up in arms over a new rail line that does the same. Granted the railway will have to be grade separated but a series of over/under passes along the route will keep the lot and concussion roads connected. I wonder if there are similar articles in archives protesting the construction of the 401 from the 1950's?

Oxford County is adopting a zero waste plan (garbage). They were also a leader in restricting the subdivision of farms (usually you can only subdivide one lot after 1980-ish). Developers have tried to take them to the OMB over their land use plan (to limit development on agricultural land) and have been successful.

So they are fairly progressive in ensuring that agricultural areas remain agricultural. So no. They are not OK with agricultural land being paved over. But please show me any rural municipality where it is economically feasible to have a focus on transit?

(fyi...the townships/cities are responsible for local transit if there is a need)

 

[ShonTron]

Oxford County is adopting a zero waste plan (garbage). They were also a leader in restricting the subdivision of farms (usually you can only subdivide one lot after 1980-ish). Developers have tried to take them to the OMB over their land use plan (to limit development on agricultural land) and have been successful.

So they are fairly progressive in ensuring that agricultural areas remain agricultural. So no. They are not OK with agricultural land being paved over. But please show me any rural municipality where it is economically feasible to have a focus on transit?

(fyi...the townships/cities are responsible for local transit if there is a need)

Woodstock and Tillsonburg have local transit, though only Woodstock and Ingersoll have any intercity rail or bus service. Oxford County wouldn't have any direct benefit from the high-speed rail scheme, but could benefit from upgraded conventional rail service.

 

[muller877]

Woodstock and Tillsonburg have local transit, though only Woodstock and Ingersoll have any intercity rail or bus service. Oxford County wouldn't have any direct benefit from the high-speed rail scheme, but could benefit from upgraded conventional rail service.

And Oxford County was part of the team lobbying for taking trucks off the 401. By moving Toronto's garbage via rail to the dump. But it was too expensive for Toronto and that's why you see one hundred + of trucks rumbling down the highway.

A quick and easy way to reduce pollution and the amount of vehicles on the road but Toronto did not want to pay for the cost.

And now with a new proposal happening (in Oxford County) which literally has a rail siding next door to the proposed dump again Toronto is planning to ship via truck.

 

[lenaitch]

I suppose one of the teachable moments in this and many other Transportation threads is that, beyond the official and unofficial number crunching and debating the minutiae of routes and service, not everyone shares the same strategic vision and that an us-versus-them or the rural/suburban-urban divide really doesn't solve anything. Smaller municipalities can't really be expected to buy into a larger vision outside their immediate area when it doesn't benefit their ratepayers and they have difficulty paying to keep the roads plowed.

Yes, density is generally financially more efficient, but it creates its own set of problems that don't exist in less dense communities. I could get apoplectic when I read, as I did on the weekend, of a house in Toronto that was valued at over twice mine, but only assessed about 60% of the property tax, (and my municipality doesn't fund a transit system and has a volunteer fire department that will come and house down what remains of my foundation). But I don't, because (a) I've made my choices where to live and (b) I know it is a whole lot more complex that my little brain can comprehend.

People live in big or small communities for the same reason - to make a living and raise a family. People live in small, even remote communities, to grow the food, generate the electricity, or even perhaps mine the lithium that benefit other areas and will be needed in the future. Some even defend the nation's sovereignty. To say that they should just get with the tour is just as helpful or constructive as saying that Toronto should dispose if its own waste or generate its own damned electricity. Nobody likes trucks and freight trains, particularly near where they live, but it seems everybody wants what on them. Everyone talks about the 'new' or 'smart' economy, but that still requires stuff to be manufactured grown, mined or generated, and for the foreseeable future, a lot of that stuff will come from someplace else.

The one point that does get me a little pissy is when I hear things like people in smaller communities are an inefficient drain and should just suck it up and be happy with whatever scraps the government of the day decides to toss their way, or move to the big city. Like Red Green said, "we're all in this together".

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

A highway does a community no benefit unless there is an on/off ramp within the community. Functionally equivalent to a rail station.

There are many stretches along the 401 where the exits are 15 km apart. Those communities must deal with the highway noise but do not have (convenient) access to the highway

 

[Urban Sky]

A highway does a community no benefit unless there is an on/off ramp within the community. Functionally equivalent to a rail station.

There are many stretches along the 401 where the exits are 15 km apart. Those communities must deal with the highway noise but do not have (convenient) access to the highway

You are forgetting that these Highways allow through traffic to bypass these communities, thus reducing the congestion and noise/air pollution for the people living within them...

 

[ShonTron]

A highway does a community no benefit unless there is an on/off ramp within the community. Functionally equivalent to a rail station.

There are many stretches along the 401 where the exits are 15 km apart. Those communities must deal with the highway noise but do not have (convenient) access to the highway

Uh, no. There are only two stretches with exits at least 15 kilometres apart: between Oxford Road 29 (Drumbo) and Waterloo Road 97 (Ayr/Cambridge), and between Bloomfield Road near Chatham and Highway 2 near Tilbury. The only community that isn't properly served might be Ayr, which would benefit from an interchange at Waterloo Road 58 (Northumberland Street).

I don't think that Oxford County is in the wrong raising concerns about the proposed high-speed rail line, especially if it might impact property owners, county services and roads, and the existing VIA service.

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^^ Your last point is the most pertinent. For people in Oxford {and Perth for that matter} county it's a zero sum game. They get all the inconvenience of HSR but conversely lose all their current VIA service. You really can't blame them for asking "what's in it for us?".

I have NEVER agreed with this HSR proposal and always thought it was a colossal waste of money. Just use the current London-Toronto corridor but upgrade the line with needed overpasses, track twinning, and the crucial Brantford by-pass. run express diesel at 200km/hr like in the UK and Londoners will arrive at Union in an hour.

KW is already getting all-day GO, has VIA, and with stops now at Guelph and Malton as well as slower speeds thru Toronto itself, they won't find it much faster than what they have now. Brantford can be offered GO rail {which is probably inevitable regardless} and Windorites and Londoners will have very fast express service and the occasional milk-run could still keep going serving the other centres like Chatham, Ingersol, Woodstock, Paris, Brantford etc. Londoners would get to Union a lot faster than this HSR idea.

As for the "I do want a diesel train" crowd, rest assured that Hydrogen rail is on it's way.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

^^^^ Your last point is the most pertinent. For people in Oxford {and Perth for that matter} county it's a zero sum game. They get all the inconvenience of HSR but conversely lose all their current VIA service. You really can't blame them for asking "what's in it for us?".

I have NEVER agreed with this HSR proposal and always thought it was a colossal waste of money. Just use the current London-Toronto corridor but upgrade the line with needed overpasses, track twinning, and the crucial Brantford by-pass. run express diesel at 200km/hr like in the UK and Londoners will arrive at Union in an hour.

KW is already getting all-day GO, has VIA, and with stops now at Guelph and Malton as well as slower speeds thru Toronto itself, they won't find it much faster than what they have now. Brantford can be offered GO rail {which is probably inevitable regardless} and Windorites and Londoners will have very fast express service and the occasional milk-run could still keep going serving the other centres like Chatham, Ingersol, Woodstock, Paris, Brantford etc. Londoners would get to Union a lot faster than this HSR idea.

As for the "I do want a diesel train" crowd, rest assured that Hydrogen rail is on it's way.

Running HFR through the London-Woodstock-Brantford-Hamilton-Toronto corridor makes no sense. CN would be forced to retake the Guelph Sub from Metrolinx, or Metrolinx would be forced to build an entirely new corridor for CN in order for CN to run it's freight trains on a decent enough schedule to Sarnia, which would be a prohibitive expense and could jeopardize two-way all-day GO service (which is badly needed) to Kitchener. Plus, it makes absolutely no sense to have a dedicated HFR or HSR corridor that doesn't run through Kitchener and Guelph and their combined >770 000 person census metropolitan area (the total population that would be served using the proposed corridor far exceeds that of the London-Woodstock-Brantford-Hamilton-Toronto corridor), and given increasing demand from industry in the K-W/Guelph region for better transport links from and to Toronto and other areas on the Kitchener Line.