GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[reaperexpress]

There's scheduling and there's ridership. I rode the Milton line last week and while the train was pretty full, I had no trouble getting a seat at Kipling.

I wonder how ridership compares to 2019?

- Paul

Empirically one would expect Milton to lag behind Lakeshore W and Kitchener in ridership recovery even if service frequencies were equal. We know that generally peak period commuter ridership to downtown is much lower than in 2019 but off-peak ridership across the region is higher. The land use and transit connections around the Milton line are not well suited to off-peak or counter peak travel even if there were such train service, since there aren't many destinations along the line. It's effectively a shuttle from Mississauga to downtown Toronto.

In contrast the Kitchener and Lakeshore lines have substantial trip generators all the way along the line, like KW, Guelph and Hamilton, which fuel all-day two-way ridership.

So I don't think it's concerning that Milton ridership is still lower than 2019. It means that we don't need to run the trains very close together to handle the peak surge. Pre pandemic, AM peak service was every 11 minutes, but now we will have the same number of departures at 15-minute headways, producing a longer span of service.

 

[Bojaxs]

Empirically one would expect Milton to lag behind Lakeshore W and Kitchener in ridership recovery even if service frequencies were equal. We know that generally peak period commuter ridership to downtown is much lower than in 2019 but off-peak ridership across the region is higher. The land use and transit connections around the Milton line are not well suited to off-peak or counter peak travel even if there were such train service, since there aren't many destinations along the line. It's effectively a shuttle from Mississauga to downtown Toronto.

In contrast the Kitchener and Lakeshore lines have substantial trip generators all the way along the line, like KW, Guelph and Hamilton, which fuel all-day two-way ridership.

So I don't think it's concerning that Milton ridership is still lower than 2019. It means that we don't need to run the trains very close together to handle the peak surge. Pre pandemic, AM peak service was every 11 minutes, but now we will have the same number of departures at 15-minute headways, producing a longer span of service.

I would say there's probably some counter peak demand for stations like Kipling, Cooksville, Erindale (UTM students).

 

[Sunnyside]

I would say there's probably some counter peak demand for stations like Kipling, Cooksville, Erindale (UTM students).

There’s almost certainly demand along the entire corridor, these are probably the most notable that could see immediate ridership uptake. Lots of people riding buses that connect to Milton line stations, or that could use the line as an alternative throughout the day. It is effectively entirely urbanized from end to end, after all.

 

[nfitz]

So I don't think it's concerning that Milton ridership is still lower than 2019.

I hadn't realized that recent numbers had been released.

Do you have a link?

 

[Dan416]

Empirically one would expect Milton to lag behind Lakeshore W and Kitchener in ridership recovery even if service frequencies were equal. We know that generally peak period commuter ridership to downtown is much lower than in 2019 but off-peak ridership across the region is higher. The land use and transit connections around the Milton line are not well suited to off-peak or counter peak travel even if there were such train service, since there aren't many destinations along the line. It's effectively a shuttle from Mississauga to downtown Toronto.

In contrast the Kitchener and Lakeshore lines have substantial trip generators all the way along the line, like KW, Guelph and Hamilton, which fuel all-day two-way ridership.

So I don't think it's concerning that Milton ridership is still lower than 2019. It means that we don't need to run the trains very close together to handle the peak surge. Pre pandemic, AM peak service was every 11 minutes, but now we will have the same number of departures at 15-minute headways, producing a longer span of service.

Uh, what? The Milton Line passes through literally the centre of Mississauga and if it were anywhere near as frequent as Lakeshore, the Milton stations in Missisauga would easily surpass those on the Lakeshore line. South Mississauga, which is served by Lakeshore, has been stagnating population compared to the centre and north of the city.

Looking at the new schedules, it seems like they took out some of the padding that they had added. I wonder if CPKC finished up some maintenance as I had noticed that the train was getting in slightly earlier than before.

But for the life of me I can't figure out why they keep adding trains leaving Union before 5 pm. There's now 5 trains that leave Union before 5 pm, with 5 after. Do that many people actually get off before 5? The 30 minute gap between the 5:25 pm and 5:55 pm trains are particularly egregious in my opinion.

 

[Jonny5]

Uh, what? The Milton Line passes through literally the centre of Mississauga and if it were anywhere near as frequent as Lakeshore, the Milton stations in Missisauga would easily surpass those on the Lakeshore line. South Mississauga, which is served by Lakeshore, has been stagnating population compared to the centre and north of the city.

Looking at the new schedules, it seems like they took out some of the padding that they had added. I wonder if CPKC finished up some maintenance as I had noticed that the train was getting in slightly earlier than before.

But for the life of me I can't figure out why they keep adding trains leaving Union before 5 pm. There's now 5 trains that leave Union before 5 pm, with 5 after. Do that many people actually get off before 5? The 30 minute gap between the 5:25 pm and 5:55 pm trains are particularly egregious in my opinion.

From personal experience working in a financial district office, there is a big trend of people to "leave early to beat the rush" around 2-3 p.m. and then they log in and finish working at home, often well after 5, but only sparsely online. It's tacitly accepted in my office.
They say you have to come in three days per week, but at the same time they tell us "the system only checks if your employee card was tapped at least one time, not when or how many times."

That said, people shifting their working hours to 8-4 or even earlier also appears to have become a trend too, again to beat the rush on the morning side of the commute. We have someone in my group who now does 7-3 each day. She says it works well as she can pick up the kid from school right around 3:45 to take him home for the day, and the kid is awake at 6:00 a.m. each day anyway so she has to get up early too.

I've always started at 8:30, but I live downtown so I'm not really impacted by commuting times.

 

[reaperexpress]

Uh, what? The Milton Line passes through literally the centre of Mississauga and if it were anywhere near as frequent as Lakeshore, the Milton stations in Missisauga would easily surpass those on the Lakeshore line. South Mississauga, which is served by Lakeshore, has been stagnating population compared to the centre and north of the city.

Looking at the new schedules, it seems like they took out some of the padding that they had added. I wonder if CPKC finished up some maintenance as I had noticed that the train was getting in slightly earlier than before.

But for the life of me I can't figure out why they keep adding trains leaving Union before 5 pm. There's now 5 trains that leave Union before 5 pm, with 5 after. Do that many people actually get off before 5? The 30 minute gap between the 5:25 pm and 5:55 pm trains are particularly egregious in my opinion.

You seem to be missing the point. Housing is not a destination. It's an origin. I'm talking about the distribution of destinations. Downtown Missisauga (Square One) would be a destination, but the Milton Line literally doesn't go there.

I hadn't realized that recent numbers had been released.

Do you have a link?

There are fewer trains than in 2019 and each individual train is (anecdotally) less full than in 2019. Therefore ridership is lower than in 2019.

 

[Dan416]

You seem to be missing the point. Housing is not a destination. It's an origin. I'm talking about the distribution of destinations. Downtown Missisauga (Square One) would be a destination, but the Milton Line literally doesn't go there.


There are fewer trains than in 2019 and each individual train is (anecdotally) less full than in 2019. Therefore ridership is lower than in 2019.

What are the "destinations" along Lakeshore West, exactly? What at Mimico, Long Branch, Clarkson, Burlington, Appleby is there that isn't along the Milton Line? I live in Mississauga, and anecdotally, the Milton trains are much fuller than the Lakeshore trains. Port Credit and Oakville are "nice", but they're by no means more "destinations" than Streetsville or Cooksville.

I take the Milton Line several times a week. Anecdotally, it's extremely busy.

 

[reaperexpress]

What are the "destinations" along Lakeshore West, exactly? What at Mimico, Long Branch, Clarkson, Burlington, Appleby is there that isn't along the Milton Line? I live in Mississauga, and anecdotally, the Milton trains are much fuller than the Lakeshore trains. Port Credit and Oakville are "nice", but they're by no means more "destinations" than Streetsville or Cooksville.

I take the Milton Line several times a week. Anecdotally, it's extremely busy.

I don't doubt that. The question is whether it's overcrowded with 12-car trains because that was the situation before the pandemic.

 

[afransen]

We have someone in my group who now does 7-3 each day.

I have multiple people my team working both 7-3 and 10-6, to help make commuting tolerable.

 

[Willybru21]

Hopefully once Alstom sorts out their staffing and training scheduling mess, we'll see that sometime in the New Year.

None of that will be Alstoms responsibility come January 1st. At this point in time there isn’t enough time left to start any new classes for any positions besides CSA (and time will be running out for that too, I believe their classes are 6 weeks long) and have them finish before the transition date, so I believe its just a state of limbo until then.

 

[dowlingm]

As the GO Transit door closes to Alstom, the Metrolink (Calif) one opens. Some pungent comments on the Reddit thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/railroading/comments/1g7a2q9/amtrak_loses_metrolink_contract_alstom_awarded_bid

 

[ARG1]

You seem to be missing the point. Housing is not a destination. It's an origin. I'm talking about the distribution of destinations. Downtown Missisauga (Square One) would be a destination, but the Milton Line literally doesn't go there.


There are fewer trains than in 2019 and each individual train is (anecdotally) less full than in 2019. Therefore ridership is lower than in 2019.

FWIW Erindale GO is very close to UTM as the crow flies, in fact its by far the closest form of higher order transit to UTM. Sure its not on UTM campus itself, but I can imagine that with a bridge or some sort of direct link between UTM and Erindale, it could be one of the preferred ways of reaching UTM (aside from maybe the Dundas BRT - but even that's more of a local service).

 

[bearcat]

FWIW Erindale GO is very close to UTM as the crow flies, in fact its by far the closest form of higher order transit to UTM. Sure its not on UTM campus itself, but I can imagine that with a bridge or some sort of direct link between UTM and Erindale, it could be one of the preferred ways of reaching UTM (aside from maybe the Dundas BRT - but even that's more of a local service).

It's about a 30 minute walk even with a bridge looks like, that's an hour of walking per day, perhaps a bit much for commuting for most. Though it would be less than 10 minutes on a bicycle. Maybe they can put bike share docks at either end .

I measured out a possible path, which includes a bridge across the Credit River and building walking paths through Erindale Park.

 

[reaperexpress]

Me: "The Milton line has fewer all-day trip generators than the Kitchener or LSW lines"

Them: "So you hate the Milton line?!"