GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[ARG1]

If it's possible for Metrolinx to do both electrification and improving Milton & Kitchener via freight bypasses, then I would be in full support of that. I would imagine though that the capital costs of doing both at the same time would be astronomical. So MX would have to prioritise one over the other. Which is why I was making the case for dedicated tracks taking priority over electrification.

Its not a question of either or, its a question of how much money each individual project costs on their own merits. Metrolinx has absolutely been putting in the work to allow for future service expansions to freight owned sections. West Harbour is currently setup to allow for 30m all day service to the station with the completion of the Bayview Junction realignment and the 4th platform they added to Aldershot station. They have also been working on adding extra track capacity along the Halton subdivision to allow for all day semi-frequent service on the Kitchener Line that can properly cooperate with CN trains.

The reason why the Missing Link isn't being built isn't because Electrification is sucking up all the money, its because (In Phil Verster's own words) MX doesn't see the cost of the project to be worth the benefits when similar impact improvements can be made through more minor projects.

But I'm not just talking about the Milton and Kitchener lines. What about the lines that currently can be setup for electrification? Is there anything, infrastructure wise, along these lines, that may slow down the trains, whether diesel or electric? That was really the original point I was trying to make.

Yes, and that's what they've spent the last decade working on. They finished Georgetown South in 2015, they're currently wrapping up Davenport Diamond, and they're currently in the middle of double tracking both the Barrie and Stouffville Lines. They're also working on several grade separations along both of those corridors to allow for improved service (see: Steeles, Finch, McNaughton, Rutherford, as well as a few others).

As I've said in my last post, Electrification is quite literally the last thing they're working on in terms of corridor improvements for these lines.

I know I'm getting way ahead here, cause MX is in the process of twin tracking the Barrie line, but is there room to add a third track to both the Barrie and Stouffville lines? Not right away, but maybe 10 years down the road.

Unfortunately no 3rd track is planned beyond bypass tracks at a few stations such as Rutherford and Downsview Park. That being said they're not corridors that really need it. The corridors exclusively serve their respective lines and aren't usable as corridors for long distance rail service to justify having a dedicated 3rd track along them. Even if a miracle happens and we somehow see the Newmarket Sub fully rebuilt to allow for use of long distance intercity rail service that justifies a 3rd track, it won't be for a long time, and by no means does electrification in any way preclude that (the real barrier is needing to rebuild/shift some stations to accommodate that).

 

[smallspy]

Where would CN move their Hamilton yard? It's conveniently located close to their Hamilton clients. Why would the city of Hamilton want to kick out a major employer who also probably pays taxes to the municipality?

The yard could go just about anywhere there happens to be vacant land. No reason why it couldn't go south of town, for instance.

As the railroads have proven for many years now, a yard does not need to be specifically close to their clients. It would not be difficult to imagine an agreement whereby CN shuts down the yard, builds a new facility to the south of town (or maybe even increases the size of Aldershot), and also uses the harbour yard down within the former Stelco lands.

Get rid of the CN yard in Hamilton and you'll probably see more trucks in the area.

Cut back on the hyperbole. It does your arguments no favours.

That's cool and all. But what's the point of electrifying the network if it won't lead to faster trains and service improvements because the trains still have to stop and wait for freight to go by? I thought one of the major selling points of electrification was faster trains and more frequency?

Electrification in and of itself does not necessarily speed up the trains by a substantial margin. There are all sorts of other variables at play (smaller train lengths? EMUs?) that will do that. And train frequency is not tied to the manner in which the vehicles are powered. There are no wires over the Weston Sub, but the systems exist that allow a train to operate at 90mph every 3 minutes - that's a capability that doesn't exist anywhere else in North America at this point.

So, what does electrification do? What it does do is lead to is cleaner air. What it does do is give us the ability to reduce the amount of power required to reduce the service, by trading BTUs of diesel for KWs of electricity - and allows the ability to put some of that energy back into the system and for use by other trains through regenerative braking. What it does do is allow for more service as the vehicles are able to be used somewhat more intensively than diesel-powered ones can.

Because if electrifying doesn't lead to faster trains and more frequency then what's the point? This just becomes a vanity project, because we care too much what the rest of the world thinks about us

You seem to be quite naive as to what exactly this project is actually about.

There are quite literally thousands of pages written in these threads throughout this forum. Some of them are opinions of people, not unlike yourself. But others are actually factual matters. You may better serve yourself and your arguments by reading through them.

How much more improved service can Metrolinx get out of their diesel fleet by making substantial improvements to the existing rail infrastructure?

This is why there has been several whole projects - some still ongoing - that are specifically aimed at prepping the fixed plant in advance of electrification. More tracks, more stations, speed improvements, storage facilities - they all are going to be required, and many are being built.

If diesel trains are forced to slow down between Aldershot and West Harbour due to the curvature of the track, why would this not apply to electric trains as well?

Of course it does. Physics sucks in that way.

In regards to the Kitchener line, what about moving the Georgetown layover yard so trains are no longer forced to travel slow due to their proximity to the layover yard?

There are plans for that.

Does there need to be more grade separation on all lines to allow for faster trains?

Grade separation between autos and trains? Yes. But it won't necessarily allow for faster trains. In some places it will. But not everywhere.

Metrolinx should assess where all the chokepoints are on their network that forces their trains to slow down and resolve those issues. Once completed, it would make more sense to start electrifying the network.

It seems that Metrolinx is about 15 years ahead of you, then.

Dan

 

[Bojaxs]

The yard could go just about anywhere there happens to be vacant land. No reason why it couldn't go south of town, for instance.

As the railroads have proven for many years now, a yard does not need to be specifically close to their clients. It would not be difficult to imagine an agreement whereby CN shuts down the yard, builds a new facility to the south of town (or maybe even increases the size of Aldershot), and also uses the harbour yard down within the former Stelco lands.


Cut back on the hyperbole. It does your arguments no favours.


Electrification in and of itself does not necessarily speed up the trains by a substantial margin. There are all sorts of other variables at play (smaller train lengths? EMUs?) that will do that. And train frequency is not tied to the manner in which the vehicles are powered. There are no wires over the Weston Sub, but the systems exist that allow a train to operate at 90mph every 3 minutes - that's a capability that doesn't exist anywhere else in North America at this point.

So, what does electrification do? What it does do is lead to is cleaner air. What it does do is give us the ability to reduce the amount of power required to reduce the service, by trading BTUs of diesel for KWs of electricity - and allows the ability to put some of that energy back into the system and for use by other trains through regenerative braking. What it does do is allow for more service as the vehicles are able to be used somewhat more intensively than diesel-powered ones can.


You seem to be quite naive as to what exactly this project is actually about.

There are quite literally thousands of pages written in these threads throughout this forum. Some of them are opinions of people, not unlike yourself. But others are actually factual matters. You may better serve yourself and your arguments by reading through them.


This is why there has been several whole projects - some still ongoing - that are specifically aimed at prepping the fixed plant in advance of electrification. More tracks, more stations, speed improvements, storage facilities - they all are going to be required, and many are being built.


Of course it does. Physics sucks in that way.


There are plans for that.


Grade separation between autos and trains? Yes. But it won't necessarily allow for faster trains. In some places it will. But not everywhere.


It seems that Metrolinx is about 15 years ahead of you, then.

Dan

Thank you for your response. Tone down the snark.

EDIT: Clearly I stepped on a landmine by question electrification of the network. I'll take some time to study up more on it.

 

[crs1026]

EDIT: Clearly I stepped on a landmine by question electrification of the network. I'll take some time to study up more on it.

Don't fret the landmine - you are doing the right thing by digging deeper so you have facts not opinions.

For anyone looking for good scoop, the Metrolinx page dealing with the Electrification EA, which sets out ML's view of the facts, is here.

This is a not necessarily objective, but pretty good media airing, of the underlying issues and merits.

- Paul

 

[Sunnyside]

We're not just discussing the Hamilton yard, what about CN's Aldershot yard as well? Even though CN sold the track rights for LSW to Metrolinx, they still have customers to serve along that line. Procor, Ford Motor Co., Petrol Canada. Where would CN store these trains if they have to move their yard further away from Hamilton? Pretty sure when the Aldershot yard is full, CN has to store some of these trains in the Hamilton yard.

Well presumably wherever the Hamilton yards’ replacement is. Which would probably still be within Hamilton.

 

[reaperexpress]

That's just self-defeating behaviour. If Richmond Hill had dedicated tracks and offered 2WAD service, you would still snub it because it's not electrified?

Yes. People will always snub the Richmond Hill line because the alignment is way too curvy to for trains to ever run at a competitive average speed.

Point being, we're going to have to look at separating passenger from freight even after we electrify. So why not do it now before we electrify?

We already separated freight from passenger. The core 260 km of the GO network that Metrolinx is planning to electrify has minimal freight traffic - only a few local trains to serve industries along the line. Those few trains are at the mercy of Metrolinx dispatching and generally kept out of the way of GO trains.

I'm of the opinion that if the GO trains are to be a proper, "subway style", regional service, then switching between trains at Union should be as quick as possible.

If you guys don't see the value in quick transferring at Union, and Metrolinx focusing on comparable service for all lines rather than electrification, then stop complaining about all the cars on the 401.

Nobody is failing to "see the value" of improving frequencies. That's a straw man argument.

What we are actually arguing against is your stance that until Milton has dedicated tracks, we should not electrify other lines. Electrification brings huge benefits to service and operation. Electric trains, especially EMUs can accelerate far more quickly than diesel trains, so passengers get to their destinations faster and fewer trains are required to run a given frequency. The per-train operating cost is also much lower for electric trains than diesel trains, which makes it much more financially sustainable to operate high frequencies.

 

[asher__jo]

Sorry Paul. Apparently everyone here is in agreement and maybe I just don’t understand the pros to be electrified other than the environment. As a hybrid car owner I appreciate the environment but are there other tangible benefits.

Also as a Milton line user I’m like a broken record thinking this line needs to be fixed asap and the benefits are clear. All day go train service.

I'm really starting to think a light elevated metro line from Kipling to Square one following most of Milton rail corridor is a better solution.

 

[T3G]

I'm really starting to think a light elevated metro line from Kipling to Square one following most of Milton rail corridor is a better solution.

I don't. Having redundancy would make the politicos complacent and they'll think that implementing any kind of actual service on the Milton line is not necessary.

The less alternative options there are, the more pressure there will be to start work on expanding Milton. Also, this doesn't help anyone living along the western edges of the line.

In the meantime, they can start by improving what they have. With hourly frequencies on all branches of the 21 (except for, inexplicably, the Lisgar branch) for most of the day, and with the restoration of 15 minute service on LSW nowhere in sight, there is a lot of work for Metrolinx to do. Of course, declaring Milton a failed town and evacuating it as a government policy would be cheaper, too...

 

[afransen]

Sorry Paul. Apparently everyone here is in agreement and maybe I just don’t understand the pros to be electrified other than the environment. As a hybrid car owner I appreciate the environment but are there other tangible benefits.

Also as a Milton line user I’m like a broken record thinking this line needs to be fixed asap and the benefits are clear. All day go train service.

It's not either or.

 

[afransen]

I'm really starting to think a light elevated metro line from Kipling to Square one following most of Milton rail corridor is a better solution.

Perhaps a westward extension of Ontario Line?

 

[mdu]

That's just self-defeating behaviour. If Richmond Hill had dedicated tracks and offered 2WAD service, you would still snub it because it's not electrified?

Point being, we're going to have to look at separating passenger from freight even after we electrify. So why not do it now before we electrify?

I'm of the opinion that if the GO trains are to be a proper, "subway style", regional service, then switching between trains at Union should be as quick as possible.

If you guys don't see the value in quick transferring at Union, and Metrolinx focusing on comparable service for all lines rather than electrification, then stop complaining about all the cars on the 401.

EDIT: And don't respond with "People should just move closer to the electrified lines". Do you know how expensive it is to live in Oakville? Or anywhere near the lake for that matter.

1. The track geometry is horrid. I took the RHill line once a few months ago. Richmond Hill, despite seeming like a close-in suburb of Toronto, takes longer to get to Union than from 15km to the north in Aurora, as well as other seemingly remote suburbs like Georgetown. The thing just screeches along curves at 40kmph through the whole valley. My parents switched from Richmond Hill to Maple despite living a fair bit closer to the former about a decade ago, then moved to Aurora with not much time lost in their day. Conceivably Richmond Hill could be fixed going up the Half Mile bridge, Leaside spur, and building a Doncaster Diamond, but Ontario Line + YNSE + drive to another exurban station really takes care of the whole thing. ML will never touch it and I basically agree with them.

2. We've done all the low-hanging fruit. We've done lots of more expensive projects, like GTS, the west Toronto/Davenport diamonds, and a whole series of grade separations around the whole network. What's left are the capital expenditures that would make eyes at Queens Park pop. As mentioned, reactivating the midtown line would require lots of new bridges and paying off CP. Same goes with triple/quad tracking out to Milton. DT Brampton is too narrow for more tracks, the missing link only really makes sense if CP is diverted as well which requires shenenigans with the Agincourt yard, etc. and money for them again. At this point, electrification is a lower hanging fruit than huge capex on (re)building whole corridors. Also, believe it or not, electrification of individual lines can be separate projects. Hell, the major NY commuter operations have some diesel lines and some lines that have been electric for a century at this point. Electrification is the next thing that provides good value for the network. And I'm young enough that I think the Milton and midtown lines will see serious studies a decade from now, and maybe construction finishes before I turn 50.

3. Can't see what your point is about switching at Union. The simple fact is that some freight lines in the GTA were useless to CN for decades and some are a core part of the CP network, and the government doesn't have a money tree to fund everything. And I'm sorry, but essentially every suburb of the city that isn't Mississauga is on an electrified line. No shit it's expensive to live in Toronto these days.

 

[Allandale25]

Tough morning for GO.

 

[APTA-2048]

Tough morning for GO.

View attachment 538501

View attachment 538502

Suspicious package found at Bronte. Bomb unit on scene.

 

[gweed123]

I'm really starting to think a light elevated metro line from Kipling to Square one following most of Milton rail corridor is a better solution.

Agreed. I've been toying with the idea of in essence making the Milton Line the western extension of the Ontario Line. From Exhibition, within the LSW corridor to Roncesvalles, then up Roncy to Dundas West, then joining the Milton Line corridor north of there. I'd have the line end at Lisgar GO though, and build a mainline GO track in the 407 ROW from just north of Lisgar to just east of Bramalea. That way, the "Milton Line" could still run to Milton, but would use the Georgetown South corridor to reach Union.

The main advantage as I see it is the ability for the OL to use the Milton Line corridor where there's enough room, but to either tunnel under it where there isn't room, or to deviate from it when there's a major trip generator to hit (i.e. Square One).

In essence, this would turn the Ontario Line into the GTA's version of BART. Wider stop spacing in the suburbs, with the option for multiple branches in the suburbs where super high frequency metro is overkill.

 

[Bojaxs]

I'd have the line end at Lisgar GO though, and build a mainline GO track in the 407 ROW from just north of Lisgar to just east of Bramalea. That way, the "Milton Line" could still run to Milton, but would use the Georgetown South corridor to reach Union.

That 407 row should be left open for the potential freight bypass for CN which is necessary for the Kitchener line.