News   Jul 19, 2024
 370     0 
News   Jul 19, 2024
 1.7K     4 
News   Jul 19, 2024
 652     1 

GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

GO is on the verge of another corridor purchase. Its not just a rumor, tangible evidence can be found on the GO site itself.

Legal Services for the Acquisition of Certain Rail Corridor Lands


Metrolinx is accepting Proposals for the provision of Legal Services for the Acquisition of Certain Rail Corridor Lands.

Please note that prospective Counsel will be required to provide evidence of significant complex multi-parcel (20 or more) land acquisition transactions handled by the firm with aggregate values of each transaction nearing or exceeding fifty million dollars ($50,000,000).

http://www.gotransit.com/pcs_PUBLIC/en/TENDERS/CURRENTTENDERS/TenderAds/RFP-2009-ACS-006.htm

The deadline is September 10th.

I've previously received information that GO was on the verve of purchasing the remainder of the Newmarket sub (mile 12.9 to where it connects with the Weston sub). As far as I was aware that was virtually a done deal and so this leads me to believe that this tender is in regards to another corridor (Lakeshore East and/or West), though I can't confirm that. However exceeding fifty million dollars could mean one or the other.
I estimate the Newmarket purchase(10 miles) the be in the area of 90 million based on the 160 million GO purchased the Weston for (17 miles). Both corridors are primarily used only to service customers – no mainline freights other than a transfer that CN runs to CP’s West Toronto yard via the Weston sub.
While the Lakeshore East and West corridors would be substantially more perhaps 500 million each. (though rumor had it CN was looking for a billion each – blasphemous I say considering GO is responsible for all recent upgrades on each line)

In any case it is my ardent hope that this is in regards to the Lakeshore corridor.
 
Last edited:
While the Lakeshore East and West corridors would be substantially more perhaps 500 million each. (though rumor had it CN was looking for a billion each – blasphemous I say considering GO is responsible for all recent upgrades on each line)

The value of the land, without tracks, is probably worth that much to condo developers.

Put it this way, how much would it cost GO to expropriate a new Lake Shore railway corridor and NOT build track?
 
The value of the land, without tracks, is probably worth that much to condo developers.

That presumes you could transfer the lands to condo developers either without tracks or with the understanding that the tracks could be removed. Neither of which is likely.
 
GO is on the verge of another corridor purchase. Its not just a rumor, tangible evidence can be found on the GO site itself.



http://www.gotransit.com/pcs_PUBLIC/en/TENDERS/CURRENTTENDERS/TenderAds/RFP-2009-ACS-006.htm

The deadline is September 10th.

I've previously received information that GO was on the verve of purchasing the remainder of the Newmarket sub (mile 12.9 to where it connects with the Weston sub). As far as I was aware that was virtually a done deal and so this leads me to believe that this tender is in regards to another corridor (Lakeshore East and/or West), though I can't confirm that. However exceeding fifty million dollars could mean one or the other.
I estimate the Newmarket purchase(10 miles) the be in the area of 90 million based on the 160 million GO purchased the Weston for (17 miles). Both corridors are primarily used only to service customers – no mainline freights other than a transfer that CN runs to CP’s West Toronto yard via the Weston sub.
While the Lakeshore East and West corridors would be substantially more perhaps 500 million each. (though rumor had it CN was looking for a billion each – blasphemous I say considering GO is responsible for all recent upgrades on each line)

In any case it is my ardent hope that this is in regards to the Lakeshore corridor.

I've never dropped $50m on land before (so for all I know this is part of the misdirectional shenanigans that goes on ;)), but I'd assume that if it were a $200m+ transaction, they wouldn't say "nearing or exceeding $50m" on the tender. At the very least that provides a ballpark for us to play inside.

I wouldn't rule out Newmarket as being the corridor in question: even if it were a "done deal" in terms of CN and GO having settled on a price, it's still quite possible---likely, even---that in situations like this you still have to bring in a flotilla of lawyers for a few months to cross 'i's and dot 't's. Newmarket's a narrower corridor with fewer infrastructural improvements (ie trackage, signalling) on it than Weston, so it would be reasonable to expect it would sell for a fair bit less per mile.

If this purchase is somewhere on the Lakeshore corridor and those other pricing guesses remain true, it'll have to be a relatively short chunk. Perhaps the Kingston sub from the east end of the USRC to Scarborough Jct.? (~7.4 miles) Or Oakville sub from the west end of USRC to either Willowbrook or Canpa Jct.? (~5+ miles) Would buying the latter and presumably getting signalling priority be useful from an equipment moves perspective?
 
The tender transaction figure doesn't say anything about the size of the current transaction. They are saying that they don't want inexperienced law firms that have done regular property purchases for residential or business properties and that they want people with experience in larger more complicated deals. Perhaps GO is simply stating that below $50M they think the experience required is less.
 
I've never dropped $50m on land before (so for all I know this is part of the misdirectional shenanigans that goes on ;)), but I'd assume that if it were a $200m+ transaction, they wouldn't say "nearing or exceeding $50m" on the tender. At the very least that provides a ballpark for us to play inside.

I wouldn't rule out Newmarket as being the corridor in question: even if it were a "done deal" in terms of CN and GO having settled on a price, it's still quite possible---likely, even---that in situations like this you still have to bring in a flotilla of lawyers for a few months to cross 'i's and dot 't's. Newmarket's a narrower corridor with fewer infrastructural improvements (ie trackage, signalling) on it than Weston, so it would be reasonable to expect it would sell for a fair bit less per mile.

If this purchase is somewhere on the Lakeshore corridor and those other pricing guesses remain true, it'll have to be a relatively short chunk. Perhaps the Kingston sub from the east end of the USRC to Scarborough Jct.? (~7.4 miles) Or Oakville sub from the west end of USRC to either Willowbrook or Canpa Jct.? (~5+ miles) Would buying the latter and presumably getting signalling priority be useful from an equipment moves perspective?



If they were going to purchase a piece of the lakeshore corridor and the amount was appox. 50 million, it would be a pretty small piece considering the corridor is worth 20-30 million per mile.
So obviously thats not the case. Like I said before CN wanted a billion each for the corridors, for a length of track less than 60 miles long - you do the math (ultimately that price should be negotiated downwards, as that represents the high end).

I can see CN willing to sell the Kingston since they run no mainline freights west of Liverpool at mile 312.9 along the line as they have no need for it - they all get routed up the York sub which connects to their main terminal Mac yard. Only a few industrial switchers run on that corridor - mostly to the Uxbridge sub at mile 325.3 and to 3 other switches along the entire length of the Kingston between mile 313 and 332.4 - the start of the Union station rail corridor.
It'll be nice to get this line under GO's control because CN likes to run these industrial switchers during the evening which will interfere with and cause delays just past Guildwood in the 2 track section when GO goes to 1/2 hour service as thats where the meeting point would be for an east bound and west bound GO train. Not going to happen if a CN train with 3 cars is occupying one of the tracks. It will cause a delay of 15-20 minute to several evening trains on a daily basis. GO can't do anything about this now without ownership, as CN only cares about pleasing their primary customers - the industries (though I suppose its fully within their right to do so since they own the track and they are a private for profit corperation). But when GO gains ownership, they can dictate how and when CN freights run on it and that'll be only during the middle of the night when there are no GO trains. It might inconvenience some industries i.e. delay the arrive of time sensitive materials, and have these materials arrive when they are closed for the night and CN might lose a customer or two to trucking. However, and I'm sure I don't need to say this to anyone here but I will anyways... In order to convince more people into giving up their cars and taking public transit(thus reducing emissions and congestion), GO needs to provide the most efficient and timely service possible.
In any case CN is not just going to sell one tiny piece of a sub they rarely use - its going to be sold in its entirely, not piecemeal.

As for the Oakville that gets even more complicated so i'm not going to get into it too much. It is occasionally used by mainline freights that come down the Bala sub, that go to Oakville yard (west of mile 19) to set off and/or pick up cars. The line gets busier west of Oakville yard and it is very frequently used west of Burlington West at mile 32.2 (west of Burlington GO station mile 31.5) where CNs main east-west line, the Halton sub connects to the Oakville sub. There are also many more industries along the line than on the Kingston.
Safe to say CN will never sell the track west of Burlington West and might not sell the trackage up until Oakville yard or 9th Line(the eastern entrance to Oakville yard). The track east of 9th Line m.19 should be purchasable though and GO can control the movement of the mainline freights that come down the Bala sub - which usually happens midday and has caused occasional delays.

So that gives us 19 miles of the Kingston and 19 miles of the Oakville - 38 miles in total of what is a 3-4 track corridor, fully signaled track (CTC) continually welded rail. Which is where my previous estimate of 500 million for each of those 2 sections comes from (appox 26.4 million per mile). Ultimately, it should fall within 20-30 million per mile.

The Weston went for 10 million per mile for what is mostly single main track(70%) and signaled (CTC). The portion of the Newmarket sub that GO does not own is also single track and signaled (CTC). The corridor widths vary so its hard to compare that, but its safe to say that the Weston is generally a wider corridor in that it can accommodate 3-4 tracks, while the Newmarket is good for 2-3 tracks. The values of the corridors are based more so on the current infrastructure, and less so on the corridor width.
Taking that all into account and I'd say the Newmarket is still worth 7-8 million per mile.

Every other corridor that GO runs on is either already owned by GO (Weston, Uxbridge, GO sub, rest of the Newmarket) or is a CN or CP mainline (Halton, Bala, Galt subs) that will not change ownership. So this transaction is in regard to either the Kingston, Oakville or Newmarket subs.

In conclusion, the 50 million dollar figure does not correlate to any corridor or worthwhile portion thereof. The reason for mentioning 50 million is just as EnviroTO states.

edit: I suppose CN might be nice and basically 'give' the rest of the Newmarket away for 50 mil, but than again a 1000 footer could go up at 1 bloor... both are just as likely at this point :p
 
Last edited:
Thanks, vegeta, I stand corrected on two points: that Newmarket is CTCed (for some reason I assumed it was dark territory like Stouffville) and that the proportion of Weston that is currently single-tracked is that high. Are you certain that piecemeal purchases of corridors are completely verboten, though? Metrolinx/GO might have the cash on its books and the board-level fiscal autonomy to drop ~$100 mil on new capital, but need to go through the main annual provincial budgeting process to get allocations big enough to cover 30+ miles of Lakeshore. Incremental purchases might allow them to avoiding dragging Queens Park into play.

In any event, someone from GO definitely earned their paycheque if their objective was to post this tender without tipping their hand as to what property was about to change hands. I, for one, will be unable to sweep in and outbid them at the last minute. ;)
 
Last edited:
Not a problem, and you weren't that far off to think that the Newmarket was dark territory - as a good part of. The line north of mile 12.9 Concord is still dark territory and GO owned. The line south of 12.9 is CTCed and CN owned. Its the only sub in the GTA that is both signaled and none signaled.

The Weston is was double tracked up to mile 5.4, though its been reduced to mile 3 because to the West Toronto Grade separation project as theres only room for one track through that area. There is also a small portion from mile 12.5 to 14.1 thats double track though the second track in this area is really just a passing track - max speed is 30mph vs 80mph on the other mainline. Everything else is currently just service tracks and industrial leads.

Yeah I'm not sure how much autonomy metrolinx has when it comes to these types of purchases... They did drop 160 mil for the Weston, though its never been stated exactly how that was funded.

I suppose the Oakville could go in parts, first up to Willowbrook, than to Campa, than to Oakville yard and so on. The Kingston's is going to go in one go when it go's though.
(…too many go's... working for them must be getting to me. :p)

In any event, someone from GO definitely earned their paycheque if their objective was to post this tender without tipping their hand as to what property was about to change hands. I, for one, will be unable to sweep in and outbid them at the last minute. ;)

They may just have planned it that way to prevent any unwanted competition like you or I from stepping in, lol.
 
This is pretty minor, but:

"starting Monday, September 14th, we will be opening a new Bay St. entrance to Union Station that will greatly improve access to the concourse and the bus terminal. As a result of these improvements, some of your evening departure platforms at Union will change. We appreciate your patience and apologize if these changes cause any inconvenience to your normal commute. Please visit gotransit.com for details."
 
This is pretty minor, but:

"starting Monday, September 14th, we will be opening a new Bay St. entrance to Union Station that will greatly improve access to the concourse and the bus terminal...."

They've had the hoarding up for a while now. It will be nice to see it finally open. It will be the one bright spot in that dark and dirty Teamway.

I wonder if they'll close or restrict use of the existing entrance immediately north of there?
 
Please visit gotransit.com for details."

I don't know if GO has noticed but their GO TRIP and Union Station Renewal webages haven't been updated for a long long time. There are no details about this on their website.

It would be nice if the teamways on Bay were transformed into what exists for the York West Teamway.
 
Not sure if this is the best thread, but with all the GO Transit expansion, the GO Transit map is beginning to look cluttered. In particular, I find the area between the Lisgar station and Bramalea station very hard to read.

Also, why don't they indicate on the map that train service to NF will end in October?
 
It's never really been a triumph of good design, but you're right that it's increasingly dog's breakfasty with these latest revisions. The Metrolinx RTP had a rather well-done system map that I wish they'd use as the basis for their charts.

Any idea what's behind the distinction between garden-variety "park and ride/carpool" sites denoted with the grey car icon, and the (implicitly super-duper?) "park and ride" site denoted with ugly black car + bus + arrows icon? The only examples of the latter are at Aberfoyle and Bowmanville, and I haven't the foggiest when it comes to what sort of qualities those sites have that the others lack. Is someone posted at the Aberfoyle and Bowmanville lots to make sure you don't get out of your car and into someone else's? (FWIW, the French terms are, respectively, Stationnements pour covoituritage [literally "Parking for carpooling"], and Stationnements incitatifs [literally "Incentive parking", which is dictionariable as a translation for "Park and Ride"], so that doesn't help in the slightest.)
 
Last edited:
I have a serious problem with the GO map.

First, its just hard to read. Its ugly. There's no consistency.

Secondly, its bus routes are very poorly displayed. It gives no indication as to where buses actually go, only that some buses run along certain streets. All the lines connect to all the other lines, so its impossible to know what the routes actually are.

Third, all the little icons are very distracting, and too big.

Fourth, the subway lines are poorly drawn. They barely resemble the real geography of the system, or the TTC diagram style. I can understand it, but I'm sure people not as familiar with the system would have trouble. And why not colour the lines so people know which subway line they can connect to. I cant really tell by looking that there is a subway between Bloor and Kipling, and would not expect the Yonge line to go to Union, because it doesnt appear to on this map.

Fifth is a lack of useful information. Some australian maps are very good at this, giving fare zones, distance to the central station (in 15 min intervals), showing frequency of trains at peak, off-peak, and weekends. It could also give some indication of express services.

So, if GO wants to make a big service improvement, they will overhaul this map. Having to figure this thing out is a disincentive for people trying to switch to using GO.
 
We could just focus on the text and labeling alone, and still find enough problems with that map:
  • bus stops labels too close together
  • bus stops labels too small
  • inconsistent text style and colour for bus stops labels
  • all rotated text should be rotated in the same direction
  • text should not be placed on top of lines without halos
  • halos should be actual halos, not simple white rectangles placed underneath the text (see Etobicoke North, Lisgar, Mt Pleasant, etc.)
  • halos should be the same colour as the background (e.g. not white)
  • lines should not placed on top of text (see Aldershot)
  • when labelling a train station on a line, it might be a good idea not to allow the text to obscure the line itself? (see Etobicoke North)
  • the legend is too big, and should not overlap with the frame of the map
 

Back
Top