GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Remembering that this is a report from June - but they had projected weekend service to start to Mount Pleasant at the same time as the evening service in April.



I can't confirm anything because this is only a planning document.

Although it does seem like they are trying their best to keep up with it. I got confirmation yesterday of an additional Stouffville train starting up in January, which the document did make note of.



Sorry, my crystal ball doesn't predict that far out.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

No problem! Thanks for the answers.

This is a game change for Brampton like Bart said.

 

[mdrejhon]

Infact, let's take this all the way. When is 7-day all day service coming to West Harbour, 2020?

We'll probably find out when a podium appears in Hamilton between now and next spring.

The construction completions of many projects along the Aldershot-to-Grimsby corridor seems to point at this, and West Harbour's below-grade parking garage is essentially ready -- awaiting a ribbon cutting ceremony and at least one extra train, methinks. So there has to be a Steven Del Duca podium appearing in mere months, or they run the risk of many idle construction-completed projects through Hamilton. (i.e. look at how complete & underused West Harbour GO is -- just awaiting construction completions in 2017 to make service increases possible). So bet your money on some Hamilton announcements in mere months of near-term service increases, and a clearer update on the status of all-day 2-way GO train service to Hamilton.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We'll probably find out when a podium appears in Hamilton between now and next spring.

The construction completions of many projects along the Aldershot-to-Grimsby corridor seems to point at this, and West Harbour's below-grade parking garage is essentially ready -- awaiting a ribbon cutting ceremony and at least one extra train, methinks. So there has to be a Steven Del Duca podium appearing in mere months, or they run the risk of many idle construction-completed projects through Hamilton. (i.e. look at how complete & underused West Harbour GO is -- just awaiting construction completions in 2017 to make service increases possible). So bet your money on some Hamilton announcements in mere months of near-term service increases, and a clearer update on the status of all-day 2-way GO train service to Hamilton.

Thanks Mark. Glad to hear it. Can't wait to take a straight trip to Hamilton without the Bus!

 

[mdrejhon]

When passengers show up to use the service.

After UPX shat on GOs operating budget in 2015 I doubt they'll ever schedule large improvements on speculation alone ever again. They'll run more trains when passengers start showing up to the ones that run today.

Extension of existing service is a much simpler matter than building a 15-min 2-way service from scratch. And much, much less damaging to the budget. GO is already operating to Aldershot, just one stop behind Hamilton!

And now, large monies are being spent in Hamilton, along with the Niagara GO expansion (Stoney Creek 2019, StCat 2021, Niagara 2023), plus the Hamilton LRT. Some photography I made of three sites are http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/2672
Which doesn't even include a fourth site -- They are almost finished with the Hamilton Rail Junction Expansion (this week, the bridge is being lifted into place onto the newly built abutments).

They preannounced all day GO to Hamilton in 2015 for "within 10 years" and they finally seem to be putting real money on it already with four main construction sites, new track, new signals, new retaining walls, new bridge over Desjardins, Lewis layover yard, Centennial Parkway bridge (expansion to four or five tracks plus a platform.... they begin building the station right after they finish the Centennial Pkwy bridge which is almost done) -- all of which are active construction sites that only benefits Niagara and West Harbour. All of which I have visited with my camera!

Once all done (sunk capital cost), I've no dobut they'll activate some low-cost incremental extension that ramps ups to all-day service.

 

[crs1026]

They preannounced all day GO to Hamilton in 2015 for "within 10 years" and they finally seem to be putting real money on it already with four main construction sites, new track, new signals, new retaining walls, new bridge over Desjardins, Lewis layover yard, Centennial Parkway bridge (expansion to four or five tracks plus a platform.... they begin building the station right after they finish the Centennial Pkwy bridge which is almost done) -- all of which are active construction sites that only benefits Niagara and West Harbour. All of which I have visited with my camera!
.

I continue to marvel at how little public spotlight this project is being given relative to its price, and to other projects that have been getting so much more attention. This extension was approved and funded way before 2015....before the last election in fact, and I would predict that it would be completed before the next one. It's the perfect project for the Wynne cabinet to point to and say " You see? When we say we will do something, we deliver". Instead, they waxed poetic about things like K-W and HSR that have hugely long lead times and big pricetags that are as yet unfunded, and which won't be out of the gate at election time. And then, late in the game, the Niagara extension comes out of nowhere and becomes a priority, but again will take time to get going.

My theory is that there is a core of project people within ML who are quite experienced and capable, and who work from a sound set of priorities..... but who are at the mercy of politics. Happily they got this one going and have managed to move it to fruition out of the spotlight. Perhaps it's good that ML keeps its project execution plans so secret - it prevents the political level from messing with them.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

And now, large monies are being spent in Hamilton, along with the Niagara GO expansion (Stoney Creek 2019, StCat 2021, Niagara 2023), plus the Hamilton LRT. Some photography I made of three sites are http://www.raisethehammer.org/article/2672

Yes, I'm aware of the construction. I also know that none of the promises made will apply by mid-2018 and priorities will have changed.

I expect the conservatives will continue with capital projects already underway (though at a slower pace) and claw back any and all operating subsidy for their 2019 austerity budget. They're going to discover on taking office that Wynne's 2018 balanced budget is actually a $5B deficit (it ignores debt taken on for capital investment) and not a $500M surplus.

 

[ShonTron]

I went for a hike from Grimsby to Hamilton a few weeks ago. I took the Amtrak/VIA train to Grimsby as it's a much more convenient location for accessing Downtown Grimsby and the Bruce Trail at Forty Creek. The GO buses stop at a park and ride next to a giant fast food outlet at Casablanca Blvd and the GO station is supposed to go here as well. It's a 45 minute walk to Downtown Grimsby, and there's no local transit.

Of course, GO wants a site where a 12-car train can stop and where there's plenty of parking. But you pretty much need a car to get to the station, and that's a shame. Especially when the new station will pave over a little bit more of the Niagara fruit belt.

https://seanmarshall.ca/2016/11/15/go-transits-grimsby-problem/

 

[innsertnamehere]

most land north of the mountain is designated for growth between Grimsby and Stoney Creek.

 

[crs1026]

I went for a hike from Grimsby to Hamilton a few weeks ago. I took the Amtrak/VIA train to Grimsby as it's a much more convenient location for accessing Downtown Grimsby and the Bruce Trail at Forty Creek. The GO buses stop at a park and ride next to a giant fast food outlet at Casablanca Blvd and the GO station is supposed to go here as well. It's a 45 minute walk to Downtown Grimsby, and there's no local transit.

More evidence that the Niagara GO plan was pulled out of the ether relatively recently.

The Casablanca lot makes perfect sense - so long as the underlying assumption is that no one will be improving GO or VIA service beyond Hamilton in the foreseeable future. I use it a lot - my observation is that it sees more use as a carpooling lot than as a park-and-ride-GO-bus lot. Totally agree that it's useless as a Grimsby hub.... which suggests, again, that no one has really cared about public transit around Grimsby in a long while.

My dad lived in Grimsby for much of the last 25 years.... while there is plenty of bedroom community commuting, it's a car mentality, period. Getting people to drive to Casablanca or Grimsby GO, instead of driving to Aldershot, will be enough of a challenge.

Transit as a way to daytrip to Niagara to cycle is an untapped leisure market but probably small potatoes in the scheme of things. Replacing auto trips with transit rides (including, but not limited to, commuting) is much larger ridership potential. Cyclists arriving on the train from Toronto for the day - well, they have caught on to busloads of gamblers making a pit stop at the fast food outlets at Casablanca, but even that took a while.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

My theory is that there is a core of project people within ML who are quite experienced and capable, and who work from a sound set of priorities..... but who are at the mercy of politics. Happily they got this one going and have managed to move it to fruition out of the spotlight. Perhaps it's good that ML keeps its project execution plans so secret - it prevents the political level from messing with them.

- Paul

Given that their Hamilton plans depend on co-operation with CN to get them done, maybe the low key approach is driven so as to not sour the relationship with them in public if timelines slide.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

More evidence that the Niagara GO plan was pulled out of the ether relatively recently.

Not really. While I wholeheartedly agree the Grimsby station should be downtown, it did not come out of thin air. It was recommended in the ESR from April 2011. Apparently, the existing VIA site was "not recommended primarily due to the fact that the site does not provide adequate parking for opening day and longer term GO train servicing needs and site available to construct a station." This is despite it having a lower capital cost to implement train service.

The car won again.

 

[Megaton327]

Not really. While I wholeheartedly agree the Grimsby station should be downtown, it did not come out of thin air. It was recommended in the ESR from April 2011. Apparently, the existing VIA site was "not recommended primarily due to the fact that the site does not provide adequate parking for opening day and longer term GO train servicing needs and site available to construct a station." This is despite it having a lower capital cost to implement train service.

The car won again.

"The car won again"--I hate seeing this attitude so often on this forum where parking at GO stations is concerned. No, the car did not win. The car would win if the GO station were built somewhere with minimal parking, and people didn't use the station due to the lack of parking, and instead continued to drive to Aldershot or, more likely, all the way to Toronto. Everybody here seems to think that if you cut parking at a GO station everybody will just walk, bike, or take transit--no, in cases like this, they'll just drive instead, that's what everybody keeps forgetting.

This, on the other hand, is GO using logic and reasoning, realising that without parking their service won't be used, and building at a site with parking so that more cars are taken off the road and more people use the train service.

 

[ShonTron]

"The car won again"--I hate seeing this attitude so often on this forum where parking at GO stations is concerned. No, the car did not win. The car would win if the GO station were built somewhere with minimal parking, and people didn't use the station due to the lack of parking, and instead continued to drive to Aldershot or, more likely, all the way to Toronto. Everybody here seems to think that if you cut parking at a GO station everybody will just walk, bike, or take transit--no, in cases like this, they'll just drive instead, that's what everybody keeps forgetting.

This, on the other hand, is GO using logic and reasoning, realising that without parking their service won't be used, and building at a site with parking so that more cars are taken off the road and more people use the train service.

Except you can't get to the station, really, without a car. That's not transit.

 

[crs1026]

This, on the other hand, is GO using logic and reasoning, realising that without parking their service won't be used, and building at a site with parking so that more cars are taken off the road and more people use the train service.

I hate when people use the term "urban elite", because it sounds like the kind of narrowminded polarised judgement that someone like Rob Ford would make. But when we take downtown city mindset and apply them to the 905, we earn the backlash. What applies in the denser city may not apply way out in the 519.

So long as the roads in Niagara Region are not full, there is nothing inherently wrong with people using their cars. The question only matters when the roads (or the GO parking lot) fill up and someone suggests spending a lot of capital to expand them. The Grimsby area still has a lot of 2-lane arterials. With development proceeding, it won't be long before someone proposes making them wider. At that point, it's fair to point out that investment in transit will solve the problem cheaper, better, and with less community impact, than widening the streets.

The QEW is full, and that auto use can be shown to be disfunctional. So investing in GO as an alternative is the obvious answer. But the case may not be there (yet) in the extremities.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

"The car won again"--I hate seeing this attitude so often on this forum where parking at GO stations is concerned. No, the car did not win. The car would win if the GO station were built somewhere with minimal parking, and people didn't use the station due to the lack of parking, and instead continued to drive to Aldershot or, more likely, all the way to Toronto. Everybody here seems to think that if you cut parking at a GO station everybody will just walk, bike, or take transit--no, in cases like this, they'll just drive instead, that's what everybody keeps forgetting.

This, on the other hand, is GO using logic and reasoning, realising that without parking their service won't be used, and building at a site with parking so that more cars are taken off the road and more people use the train service.

I hate seeing this satisfaction with the status quo. This goes beyond how people would get to/from a GO station today. This is how a community is shaped for years to come. Having a station located more central to a downtown area encourages new denser development for more people to walk, bike, or take transit. Flinging GO stations to outer areas just perpetuates GO service that's catered to people dwelling in low-density fringes of a city, does nothing to solve the existing issue of jam-packed car traffic in and out of a GO station at rush hour, and takes away the incentive to build denser and more sustainable city centres.

Of course that's not going to cater to drivers in the fringes. Let them keep driving to Aldershot, unless they change their mind and move into the core.

And of course that means a larger operating deficit on opening day. But not having the courage to accept this is the short-term view. For all of the talking points and objectives of Places to Grow and the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe, perpetuating these kind of GO stations really doesn't serve the long-term view of what our communities should be.